ATTN to Breeders

[AMJ087]

From now on we will not tolerate members promoting that they are breeders. This site is not about breeders its about members getting help and helping others with problems or concerns. There are many bad breeders and there is no way for us to tell who is legit and whos not. I also want to say that if members that are breeders want to advertise any litters please use the "Rats needing Homes" forum only. Heres an example of what is advertising and wont be tolerated. "Im a breeder and you should feed your rat 3 blueberries a day". Instead you could say, "You should feed your rat 3 blueberries a day." Another example of what not to say, "Ive been breeding for 3 years and give my rats 3 peas a day". Instead you could say, "I feed my rats 3 peas a day." In the rats needing homes section you may make a thread saying "Im a breeder and have 6 rats that need homes", as an example. No other reference should be made on any other threads. This includes signatures that are not subtle. I will say again, we do not want to promote breeding so advertisement of breeders will not be tolerated unless in the "Rats needing homes" thread.There have been too many problems and therefore will not be tolerated anymore. As a consequence any members violating this will be temporarily banned from RF for a short amount of time, and so on. We thank you for your cooperation.

[Ration1802]

I am posting this to be constructive to the forum (so please don't think I am being a deliberate pain, as you seem to be recently and just lock the thread without discussion - because this point needs to be discussed).

I think you have this backwards.

You should be wanting breeders to post their information - no, you cannot weed out good from bad with a "pea" comment (I think you've used bad examples) but with the difficult issues - accidental litters, genetics etc - a good breeder should not be banned for giving reference to their knowledge.

It is the advertisement of litters you should be worried about! BYBs will use forums like this to just post needing litters - good breeders already have homes for litters lined up and should rarely have to rely on forums to place litters. I think this is what you should stop, rather than censoring what people say.

Just my opinion 

[Jaguar]

I think it is beneficial for everyone to just refrain from talking about experiences as a "breeder" because all it's been doing lately is spurring arguments and criticism.  Anyone can claim to be a breeder, but it is difficult to judge over the internet.  Everyone's ideals of a good "breeder" are different.  You can see an example of this with my announcement about Rattikus.

They are still quite welcome to share their knowledge and it is much appreciated... All we're asking is don't make it overly apparent that you breed rats.  Some people seem to regard a breeder's advice to be more valid than, say, someone with only a few rats, and it's not always true.  Breeders should (I would hope) know more than the average rat enthusiast, but unfortunately, there are so many people that claim to be breeders that have no idea what they're talking about.  

I personally think that it is not about incompetent breeders getting exposure here, but more about the stress and problems that comes with the "I'm a breeder, I know what I'm talking about" status.  We're not trying to stop bad breeders from advertising as much as we're trying to stop boards being taken over by arguments and being hijacked with criticism about breeding ethics and other things irrelevant to the topics.

I agree that breeders shouldn't rely on forums as a main source of potential adopters... It should be more the other way around - a section for people to find breeders in their area.  Though, unfortunately, the problems are the same as above - whoever posts a rattery can't be responsible if a breeder is unethic or deemed to be incompetent.  I was on Goosemoose the other day asking if they knew any breeders in my area, and someone linked me to the rattery site of the BYB that I banned on here a few days prior.

It's a touchy subject and I know that there are a few legitimate breeders that regular this site, and it is unfortunate that we have to punish them as well, but the legitimate breeders are few and far between.  I know this is an issue on other forums as well.  All of us that regular here know who the breeders around are anyways - this is more of a rule for new members.

[Sorraia]

I am posting this to be constructive to the forum (so please don't think I am being a deliberate pain, as you seem to be recently and just lock the thread without discussion - because this point needs to be discussed).

I think you have this backwards.

You should be wanting breeders to post their information - no, you cannot weed out good from bad with a "pea" comment (I think you've used bad examples) but with the difficult issues - accidental litters, genetics etc - a good breeder should not be banned for giving reference to their knowledge.

It is the advertisement of litters you should be worried about! BYBs will use forums like this to just post needing litters - good breeders already have homes for litters lined up and should rarely have to rely on forums to place litters. I think this is what you should stop, rather than censoring what people say.

Just my opinion 

I agree. I feel as if I personally am being picked on because apparently I'm a "respected" part of the community. I was asked to remove my signature and to not say anything about being a breeder. I went back through my posts to see where I "advertise" myself, and found that I do NOT. Unless asked or challenged, I actually refrain from speaking about myself as a breeder, and prefer to rely on my long-term (almost 20 years) rat experience and biological background instead.

The problem I see in this forum, is NOT breeders using their experience to help other people. The problem is when NEW people who know very little about rats come on and start spouting off potentially harmful information as if they have all the knowledge. Quite frankly, it is THESE kinds of people, who sometimes also happen to be breeding, that seem to cause the most trouble. On one forum after another, I have seen people who have only been breeding rats for one or two years, and have only kept pet rats for the same amount of time, come on and give advice, then when challenged say "Oh I know what I'm talking about, I'm a breeder!" It's true that new people *can* help, but EVERYONE should also be humble and willing to accept criticism. When told "No, rats don't need salt blocks. They are omnivores and receive all the salt they need from their diet" a person should not reply with "Oh I know what I'm talking about, you are wrong!" and that's exactly what I see happening. People are NOT willing to take corrections, and are NOT willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, they are wrong. I don't know if this is a sign of maturity (or lack of), or a personality trait, but that's what I have seen over and over again. That is one of the reason that people WITH experience do not come to these kinds of forum - dealing with the drama and attacks just simply is not worth it.

[lilspaz68]

I totally agree Sorraia, its not breeders per se, as just uninformed individuals that are very resistant to advice, be it couched in gentle or not-so tactful terms.

What your post should be is a reminder to the other members that even thought a person says they are a breeder doesn't necessarily make them an expert on all rat subjects.  Just like with regular members, everyone needs to research and never assume someone is right just because they say they have a  Title.

I'm offended along with you Sorraia, you do a LOT of good on this forum and never advertise your litters here.  I myself have gone to Sorraia countless time for advice on my own rats.   

[AMJ087]

I assure you we are not pointing fingers at Sorraia. We agree that many memebrs are giving others false information un-knowingly and not willing to accept they may be wrong. The problems we have encountered and the issues that have came up have been because certain members do say "Im a breeder......" We dont want to discourage anyone but we feel the arguments are happening more and more and feel some of the problems could be solved by following these guidlines. As far as the signatures Sorraia, I see you dont have one? Maybe you have deleted it? Let me try to clarify what our intentions were and see if we can work this out. We just dont want people having the attitude that because they are breeders they know all and have nothing to learn. There is/ were some signatures just in a nut shell stating they are breeders etc with no other information which sends up some red flags. If your signature has your website that people may check out for themselves thats at least allowing them to research and explore options in a good way. So can we agree on that for signatures? I understand why you may feel attacked but again I want to assure you we are not pointing fingers at you. We are trying to solve some of the issues that have come up and need to start somewhere on how to control the problem. So we appreciate the feedback and comments. Would you feel better about the signatures change if we said you should have a website or contact information listed so memebrs can check out the work you do if they so choose?

[Sorraia]

I assure you we are not pointing fingers at Sorraia. We agree that many memebrs are giving others false information un-knowingly and not willing to accept they may be wrong. The problems we have encountered and the issues that have came up have been because certain members do say "Im a breeder......" We dont want to discourage anyone but we feel the arguments are happening more and more and feel some of the problems could be solved by following these guidlines. As far as the signatures Sorraia, I see you dont have one? Maybe you have deleted it? Let me try to clarify what our intentions were and see if we can work this out. We just dont want people having the attitude that because they are breeders they know all and have nothing to learn. There is/ were some signatures just in a nut shell stating they are breeders etc with no other information which sends up some red flags. If your signature has your website that people may check out for themselves thats at least allowing them to research and explore options in a good way. So can we agree on that for signatures? I understand why you may feel attacked but again I want to assure you we are not pointing fingers at you. We are trying to solve some of the issues that have come up and need to start somewhere on how to control the problem. So we appreciate the feedback and comments. Would you feel better about the signatures change if we said you should have a website or contact information listed so memebrs can check out the work you do if they so choose?

As a matter of fact, my signature DID have my website in it. My signature was a small banner stating my name and location, my "motto" and specialty, and my website address. The banner itself was also linked so that anyone could simply click on the banner itself instead of retying the address in their browser. My website gives all kinds of information about my operation, specialty, how I do things, my rats, etc, as well as my articles (including the "red flags" article stickied on this very forum) and other links. If anyone has any other questions not found on my website, I encourage them to email me and plaster my email address all over my website so they don't have to go digging to find it.

I did delete this signature because I had received a private message from a moderator telling me to delete my signature and link, and to stop referring to myself as a breeder (which as I already stated, I refrain from doing so unless asked or challenged - I even went through my previous posts to double check this).

It is this private message that makes me feel picked on/pointed at/attacked. I saw the announcement on the main forum before I received this private message. If there is a public announcement made, with another thread pointing to the announcement, I don't understand why I was ALSO given a private message, specifically to me. This private message may have also been sent out to other members, but I do not know this, nor was any mention of private messages going out made on the original public announcement.

As for allowing the signatures - I am reluctant to put mine back up. I specifically received a message telling me to delete it, so I did. If I put it back up, am I then going to be banned by that moderator for breaking the rules?

[AMJ087]

I am extremly sorry that this happened and I completly understand now more then ever why you are frusterated and upset. Im assuming all the breeders got a PM. It was our intention to try to solve the problem so Im also unclear on everything else that happened. What I can say is I will discuss this with the other MODS and get a full story of what happened. Lets come up with a plan thats more suiatable for everyone. We are all going to have to give a little bit to make it work but its possible. So first would you be comfortable with the signatures if we do what i had mentioned, making sure websites with contact info is included? I personally think its a good idea to go with that, what do you think? Do you think its fair we say to everyone we dont want to see people saying "im a bredder...." and everything that goes with that? Again Im not saying its you at all its just a general problem right now.

[Sorraia]

I am extremly sorry that this happened and I completly understand now more then ever why you are frusterated and upset. Im assuming all the breeders got a PM. It was our intention to try to solve the problem so Im also unclear on everything else that happened. What I can say is I will discuss this with the other MODS and get a full story of what happened. Lets come up with a plan thats more suiatable for everyone. We are all going to have to give a little bit to make it work but its possible. So first would you be comfortable with the signatures if we do what i had mentioned, making sure websites with contact info is included? I personally think its a good idea to go with that, what do you think? Do you think its fair we say to everyone we dont want to see people saying "im a bredder...." and everything that goes with that? Again Im not saying its you at all its just a general problem right now.

I agree entirely that if someone is going to have a signature stating they are a breeder, it needs to be more than just a rattery name. There should be a website address where people can go for more information and/or an email address.

I also agree that stating "I'm a breeder" isn't appropriate in most discussions - being a breeder makes no one person more credible than another. What makes someone credible is their long-term experience. If someone has been a breeder for 20+ years and has rats who live 5+ years and never get sick... that means something. But if someone has been breeding for only a few years and has nothing to show for it, or else has dozens of litters every year and no health tracking on any of them, that means nothing. Likewise, someone who has continuously been keeping pet rats but is not a breeder is going to have more credibility than someone who has been a breed for 1 year and kept pet rats for only 2 years prior. The only time it might be appropriate to mention "I'm a breeder" is in the *right* topic - such as topics pertaining specifically to genetics (which an experienced breeder is more likely, though not always, going to have more expertise than just a pet owner) or breeding topics. While I understand breeding is not encouraged on this forum (and I certainly am not arguing to have that changed!), sometimes breeding is discussed, particularly when it comes to finding a good breeder. Other possible topics where being a breeder *might* (depending on the breeder) give more credibility is topics regarding the care of accidental litters. If two people have a disagreement about proper care, how do they determine who is the better source? If one person is a reputed breeder of 10 years, and the other is a strict pet owner for the same amount of time, the breeder is likely going to be more credible. But having a blanket rule that no one can refer to themselves as a breeder throws all such credibility out the window. That does NOT mean people should go around saying they are breeders and using that to get their way, but where the topic warrants it (and there aren't many that will), a member stating they have experience as a breeder should not get that member banned.

[AMJ087]

We agree that in some instances it may come up. But we feel that the forum "Rats needing a home" is the only one to advertise and say "hey im a breeder and i have rats". Sometimes even in the accidental litter area when people say "im a breeder" it already starts issues becasue other memebrs feel then that there experience doesnt matter. So we prefer to limit things to make everyone comfortable here. Maybe we can say things like "Ive raised 8 litters in the past and i have always found them homes" versus "I breed rats and have always found them homes" A lot of it depends on how the member/breeder states what they say and lately many dont phrase things nicely, they ahve phrased it in a way that is offensive to other members. A general rule will help solve the problem and we need to figure out what thats going to be. So we thought that if no member says "Im a breeder..." it cuts the problem out. If you have another idea please share it.

[lilspaz68]

Its not anything to do with breeders honestly.  We have had people come in calling themselves Rescues...and they weren't.  Or just terrible at it.  People need to learn to get to know other members and let their posts/actions/reactions speak for themselves.  Breeders seem to be the issue today because of the situations lately...you are cutting off the nose to spite the face, its not a real solution...its a stopgap measure for the Mods.

[AMJ087]

Im not clear what the last part of that means but regadless if you dont think it will work please give suggestions of a rule or guidlines you think memebrs must follow. We cant make them do there own research and we cant allow the nonsense so we need to find medium ground here. Its a tough and sticky topic I know so we are all trying to come up with the best solution.

[Sorraia]

We agree that in some instances it may come up. But we feel that the forum "Rats needing a home" is the only one to advertise and say "hey im a breeder and i have rats". Sometimes even in the accidental litter area when people say "im a breeder" it already starts issues becasue other memebrs feel then that there experience doesnt matter. So we prefer to limit things to make everyone comfortable here. Maybe we can say things like "Ive raised 8 litters in the past and i have always found them homes" versus "I breed rats and have always found them homes" A lot of it depends on how the member/breeder states what they say and lately many dont phrase things nicely, they ahve phrased it in a way that is offensive to other members. A general rule will help solve the problem and we need to figure out what thats going to be. So we thought that if no member says "Im a breeder..." it cuts the problem out. If you have another idea please share it.

Stating the number of litters isn't going to help much. To clarify:
"I have raised 8 litters in the past" doesn't mean much. Were those 8 litters raised over the last 10 years? Over the last year? Over the last 6 months? What happens here is is brings up question about who these members are and whether or not they should be trusted. If someone has been breeding rats for 10 years, and has an average of 4 litters a year, they would say "I've raised 40 litters in the past". I can reasonbly see people step back and go "Whoa! Who is this? Is this a mill breeder? Does this person work at a pet store? How can I trust them!" It says nothing about the person's *true* experience. Also, stating a high number of litters (as a breed with years of experience is going to do) kind of makes it obvious this person *might* be a breeder. Either way it becomes obvious something is up and likely will lead to argument or discussion.

Just because someone states they have "abc" years of experience as a breeder does not mean the other members' advice is useless when it comes to caring for litters. Rescues have experience raising litters, and pet owners can have experience raising litters if they've fostered for a rescue or bought a pregnant pet store rat or a number of other possible situations. This doesn't mean their information is worthless.

Allow me to give a hypothetical example: There was a thread where mention of a baby having bedding stuck to its skin. One person might reply saying "oh, go ahead and pull it off", but a breeder responds saying "No it's best no to pull it off, that might injure the baby." What happens if the first member gets offended? If they respond "Oh what do you know? My advice is just as good as yours, go ahead and pull the paper off, it won't hurt the baby, rats have tough skin." So what should the breeder do now? If they respond giving the total number of litters they've raised, the member might still be offended and/or a fight breaks out because now this breeder is being accused of being irresponsible for clearly not keeping their males and females separated. Said breeder is now unable to defend his/herself because if they say they are in fact a breeder, they will be banned. What is said breeder supposed to do?

In MOST circumstances, a breeder should not have to say they are a breeder. But every now and then the situation might arise.

[Sorraia]

Im not clear what the last part of that means but regadless if you dont think it will work please give suggestions of a rule or guidlines you think memebrs must follow. We cant make them do there own research and we cant allow the nonsense so we need to find medium ground here. Its a tough and sticky topic I know so we are all trying to come up with the best solution.

Honestly - how useful is this forum?

People come here asking questions, they are going to trust the information they get. It could be very bad information that could possibly lead to death, illness, or injury of the rats in question. These same people could search the web to find the answers to their questions but they choose to come here instead. If members are no longer allowed to state their experience, how can we trust ANY of the advice we are receiving?

[AMJ087]

Of course we want users to talk about experiences, thats what makes this different then just looking general info up online.