ATTN to Breeders

[Jaguar]

If there is a problem with attitudes and arguments then the mods need to deal directly with the person/s causing or fuelling it, regardless of whether they happen to be a breeder or not.

We've chosen not to make warnings public for obvious reasons - it is happening although you may not see it.  We're not avoiding our duties.  

If that's all you got out of my post then perhaps I didn't express myself clearly.

All I'm saying is, if the problem is a member with a bad attitude then deal with that member and their attitude.  What they do for a living shouldn't really factor into it and if they happen to be a breeder to then tarnish all breeders with the same brush and start enforcing random censorship rules is, in my opinion, a knee-jerk reaction that is neither fair nor productive.

Just my two cents worth...

I can't read the minds of the other moderators, but I'm not one for totally censoring the opinion of breeders, but more asking them to refrain from using their breeding experience as a reason to be credible unless absolutely necessary, such as when their experience is challenged, or the question is something that can only be answered by someone with breeding experiences.  I don't think that's really too much to ask, as most breeders do this anyway...

[Sorraia]

I've had some private discussion with a couple of the moderators. It sounds like this "policy" is still in the works and might change yet.

Perhaps if members have constructive ideas to help solve the problems they can be sent in a PM to the moderators? Not that open discussion here isn't bad, but pure criticism can get overwhelming too.

[AMJ087]

Ok Ive been gone since this afternoon so lets see where to start...

First Ema no one here even said your name so please dont act like everything is about you, there are multiple users

Next it was the original plan to post a general announcemtn and go from there. We are open to discussion for new guidlines like I had stated earlier. So lets all forgot the past converation in a sense and discuss this....

Do we agree that signatures are ok with a website?
Do we all agree that breeders may state their breeders only when crucial and in the rats needing homes section?

If so these will be the guidlines. So again are we all agreeing on this?

[Sorraia]

Do we agree that signatures are ok with a website?
Do we all agree that breeders may state their breeders only when crucial and in the rats needing homes section?

If so these will be the guidlines. So again are we all agreeing on this?

I can agree with that.
Signatures stating rattery name "ok" with website (allowing people to research breeder)
Breeders not speaking openly about being a breeder (aka using it as a credential) unless absolutely crucial (very rarely is this going to come up) or in rats needing homes (if you are allowing breeders to advertise)

[Jaguar]

Do we agree that signatures are ok with a website?
Do we all agree that breeders may state their breeders only when crucial and in the rats needing homes section?

If so these will be the guidlines. So again are we all agreeing on this?

I can agree with that.
Signatures stating rattery name "ok" with website (allowing people to research breeder)
Breeders not speaking openly about being a breeder (aka using it as a credential) unless absolutely crucial (very rarely is this going to come up) or in rats needing homes (if you are allowing breeders to advertise)

I agree with this as well, not too sure about the breeders advertising in rats needing homes though - even before this no one really did use that as a sole place for advertisements, but it did happen here and in other places and I think that is okay. 

[AMJ087]

well if there is a litter up for adoption they obviously need to advertise lol

[Jaguar]

well if there is a litter up for adoption they obviously need to advertise lol

Well, most of the time breeders have a waiting list of potential adopters even before the litters are born... I think if they are advertising an up for adoption litter with no one currently interested that might be a bit of a red flag in the sense of breeding to supply a demand... Not sure how others feel on that one

[AMJ087]

either way it doesnt matter its an appropriate place they can use if they want to adn we discussed that

[Sorraia]

well if there is a litter up for adoption they obviously need to advertise lol

Well, most of the time breeders have a waiting list of potential adopters even before the litters are born... I think if they are advertising an up for adoption litter with no one currently interested that might be a bit of a red flag in the sense of breeding to supply a demand... Not sure how others feel on that one

In general this is true. The case may be different with a new breeder who is not yet established, but if that breeder is working with an established mentor, they will have "connections" through the mentor. In my opinion, if this forum is not meant to encourage intention breeding, then allowing breeders to advertise litters is kind of counter-productive.

[AMJ087]

i agree but thats what that forum is for regardless so as far as that goes it is what it is. But i think we all agree on these general guidlines so yay! Lets all try to stick tot hem to avoid future problems and again the MODS are sorry for the mix ups and confusion but we got it settled it looks like!

[ema-leigh]

To be honest I agree with the mods. Breeders shouldnt be allowed to advertise here, not even their litters  - not whilst there are so many rescue rats available and looking for a good home thru this site.
Im pretty the majority of breeders have waiting lists, and can find suitable homes else where off this forum. Other wise they wouldnt be breeding...

I also agree, because its hard to seperate the good breeders from the bad, it should just be avoided in general. Not like a banned word, but just not a social status anymore or a way to class your level of knowledge of rats.

You can give advise without constantly mentioning your a breeders for several decades and make a ton of babies a year.

And I never said all your comments were against me, but theres plenty there I could quote them all if you really want me too. But I think if you have half a brain and you read page one you will see exactly what Im talking about. Theres so many suttle digs you would think we were all still in highschool.

[lilspaz68]

Ema, you are just the latest in a long line of people just starting to breed and learn, those "subtle" digs are not aimed at you, but they are a generalization.

so I honestly didn't see any changes here whatsoever, except that now you ALLOW breeders to advertise their littes...ugh.

As a mod on another forum, these things happen, there is strife etc, you have to figure out if people need PM warnings, etc.  You are now just throwing a blanket over the problem and hoping it goes away...it does not.

[Ration1802]

If the moderators on here are going to start allowing breeders (not at all the genuine ones - those I can handle -  but the majority of those that find rat-forum first and use for their BYB purproses) you are going to lose what little skilled member base you have left.

You should not be spoon feeding those who cannot tell a good breeder from a bad one by censoring posts. You should be concerning yourself with educating those people to identify what is and what isn't a legitimate set up, like the red flags that sorraia so kindly created. Acting like Nazi's over this whole situation is not the way to go about it - EDUCATE don't sweep it under a rug.

This time it is about breeding, but what will come next? Giving out advise about medicine because you can't tell very experienced people from slighly experienced people?   It's a slippery slope and you will always come across this type of problem - the mods here need to devise a way to deal with it

To be constructive, I propose that if you have such a problem with breeders saying they are breeders, if they do post in that capacity you should ask them to make sure there is a website or other information in their signature. It should then be the responsibility of the person reading their post to decide whether they have legitimate experience - after all, forums are only there for SUGGESTION, you should never act on any information you receive through posts unless you first research and make sure it is correct.

As for allowing advertisements, AMJ, this forum has never been about breeding and to allow it to start now is absolutely ridiculous if you are so worried about the poor breeders that are finding this place. Your argument of them needing somewhere to post about litters, the answer is simple - POST ON A FORUM THAT ALLOWS IT! Such a drastic change should first be put through RFAdmin, as it is, after all (whether he is here a lot or not) HIS forum. It will attract a lot of the wrong crowd and saying in one place that breeding is not condoned and then allow people to advertise bred litters is a total contradiction and a load of bull.

And as a side note, I think it is quite obvious that little discussion between the moderators went into this post before it was made public. A lot of arguments could have been avoided if it was properly discussed and produced using a united front. Perhaps a lot of these 'hiccups' in your logic of this announcement could have been ironed out too. I find this method is usually best when moderating forums, just my 2 cents

[lilspaz68]

I have to agree with Beth, and zoe9 here.

[Jaguar]

It's still up for discussion, hence why we didn't lock the thread and just start enforcing it...  It's hard to have good moderator discussions.  Unfortunately some of us are going through trouble right now and can't be on as much as we would like.

Thanks for your opinions though.  Now can we work to come up with something that everyone can agree on?  

- don't say you're a breeder unless the topic closely relates to breeding and/or your experience is questioned
- if you are going to promote your rattery be sure to provide the link to a website or detailed information
- don't advertise intentionally bred litters on the "rats needing homes" section (? people have been doing this for a long time)
+ the already existing rule about not discussing / asking questions about intentional breeding

That's the basis of a potential proposition - it will be expanded on and we'll have general guidelines for when it's okay and when it's not, but moderators will have the ultimate say on it as there will always be some exceptions.

I don't really think that's too much to ask as most people do that now anyways.  

Regardless of whether or not it was started by anyone in particular, it was a rule that needed to be refined anyways.  It's not written anywhere.  How can we warn someone who violates a rule that doesn't exist?