Wobbling Rat?

[alison03]

Hi! I'm new here but I have 3 dwarf rattie boys. Captain is 2 years old, and the other two, Butters and Taz are just over 1 year.

2 weekends ago we went to get the boys out to play like we do every night, and noticed Butters didn't come to the front to be picked up. We didn't think much of it and then decided to check about 30 minutes later. We found him laying in his bed, lethargic and limp and hardly moving.

We took him to the vet first thing in the mroning and the vet couldn't think of what might be wrong. He weighed in at .18 grams I think...I don't know how that stacks up to other dwarf rats, besides the fact that the other 2 boys are much bigger. She guessed pneumonia, although he didn't show any signs of labored breathing or wheezing or anything. He just wasn't moving or eating/drinking.

Anyway, she prescribed enrofloxacin and doxycycline and we gave it to him twice daily all week. He seemed to be on the mend and got better every day. Now he's finished with the antibiotics, but is starting to act weird.

He's wobbly and his fur is kind of prickly and standing up. His eyes are clear and he otherwise looks healthy. Do you know what might be causing this? Is he getting "sick" again? Are there side effects to the meds? He looks skinny too...do you have any ideas on how to get him to eat?

[Jaguar]

Is he tilting his head to the side at all?  Watch him when he runs around - is there a direction he prefers to turn to?

[alison03]

No, he seems to be wobbling to both sides and just is kind of walking, not running like he usually does.

We gave them some peas (their favorite) and when he was eating them using his two front paws, he would keep losing his balance and put them down on the floor.

[Jaguar]

Loss of use in the forelimbs is a symptom often seen in rats with pituitary tumors - give this page a read and see if the symptoms match up.

http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php

[alison03]

Thanks for the reply and info!

I don't think it's that, but will bring it up with the vet tomrorow just in case. The only symptom seems to be weight loss, but I wasn't sure if that was a side effect to the antibiotics.

They really improved his condition: he went from laying limply on his side, mouth open, porphyrin from his eyes and nose to running around, playing, drinking/eating/pooping etc. Now, a few days later, he seems to be moving slower, a little wobbly, and a little spiky fur.

I don't know if it's something completely different or the same 'thing' coming back again. Maybe the meds weren't long enough? Or maybe coming off of them is throwing him off?

Do you (or anyone) have experience with antibiotics and their effects?

[Jaguar]

I've never experienced any side effects using baytril or doxy... Other than occasional diarrhea, but that cleared up when i started feeding probiotic yogurt between doses.

You could supplement him with Ensure or Boost pudding in a needleles syringe, oatmeal with mashed banana, avocado fruit (avoid around the skin and pit), low protein dog kibble, and other high calorie foods.

[alison03]

that sounds great! I'm going to the store (literally right now, at 10:15 at night haha) and get some of those things to hopefully plump him up a bit and to get something in his tummy.

 

[digitalangel]

If you want to give ensure or boost or anything else with calcium in it make sure to wait 2 hours after the doxy as calcium has been shown to bind with the cyclin family of drugs and make them less effective. In doxycyclin its not as bad as tetracyclin but still better to wait a bit.

[zoe9]

If the antibiotics helped I'd be inclined to think your vet was on the right track with a respiratory infection/pneumonia, however it sounds like the course was way too short which is why Butters relapsed once it was over.

You mentioned treating 'all week' -  was it just a 7 day course the vet prescribed?  If yes there's your problem.

Pneumonia needs to be treated aggressively and for a decent amount of time.

I suggest you print out this article and take it in with you so the vet can refer to it.

http://ratguide.com/health/lower_respiratory/pneumonia.php

Now it does talk about dosing baytril and doxy for '10-30 days' however in my experience anything under 2 weeks isn't long enough and I don't treat now for under 3.  In your case I'd be pushing for the max 30 days mentioned as a minimum.

If Butters breathing is laboured I'd also ask about a steroid injection as this can help enormously while waiting for the antibiotics to kick in.

Regarding the wobbliness and dropping of food I've not experienced that (I've not had a rat with pneumonia though) but I'd wonder if rather than being a symptom its simply a result of him feeling weak and unwell.   His balance could also be off if the inner ear is infected.

Good luck with the vet. I hope he'll be okay.

[Jaguar]

My vet also tries to cut courses short as well.  Three weeks should really be the minimum.

I just find it strange that he is not experiencing any of the typical signs of pneumonia - no prior symptoms, no labored breathing, sneezing, chest rattling, gasping, etc.  

It is interesting that he responded to the antibiotics, but baytril and doxy are used to treat more than just respiratory infections, so it still could be something else.  An inner ear infection can be treated with baytril/doxy and that would make a bit more sense than pneumonia.. Not much more unfortunately

What exactly did the vet do to check up on him? Swelling and fluid in the lungs would be visible on an x-ray if it were pneumonia.  Were they a qualified exotic vet, or just the general/emergency vet?

[zoe9]

I just find it strange that he is not experiencing any of the typical signs of pneumonia - no prior symptoms, no labored breathing, sneezing, chest rattling, gasping, etc.  

Again I've not experienced pneumonia (touch wood) but I've heard from those who have that it can come on quickly with no apparent symptoms and even after it's diagnosed there aren't necessarily the sounds you'd expect.  

There's also a RMCA article which states that a rat with 'no symptoms' one day can have full blown pneumonia the next.

Until I experience this sudden onset myself I'm more inclined to think early (possibly subtle) signs were there, but were missed.  Plus we know how good rats can be at hiding illness...

[Jaguar]

I have experienced pneumonia (still struggling with it) and while it went from general sneezy/sniffles to wheezing and coughing fluid the next day, there were a lot of symptoms beforehand.  They are very good at hiding illnesses though.  I would think that he would have been at least a little wheezy and congested while at the vet or in the first day or two of treatment, though it is still very possible.

[alison03]

Digitalangel: thank you for the tip about the calcium! We will definitely separate by a few hours!

Zoe9: Yes! I had no idea! The vet prescribed .04 ml of enrofloxacin twice a day (in the notes on the paper she gave us it said it was a mixture of 2 22.7 mg tablets mixed with water and valsyrup). She also prescribed 0.1 ml of doxycycline. And gave us a critical care packet that you mix with water to give if he's not eating. We're definitely going back to get more antibiotics today!!! I definitely think there may have been signs that we missed, and are possibly overly sensitive to his every movement now. But he definitely seemed "normal" for the most part until we found him laying and not moving that night.

Jaguar: the vet didn't do much. It was a 24 hour emergency clinic, and while they said they specialized in small animals, she mainly did a visual check-up: looked at him, felt for lumps or obtrusions, and listened to his breathing with a stethoscope (lol and they charged us almost $200 dollars...ha!). I agree though, he doesn't show many of the pneumonia symptoms and even the doc wasn't convinced it was it. I think that these general antibiotics maybe treated something else that we didn't know about (without bloodwork, xrays, etc). I'm still grateful (and in a little bit of shock) that he's back though.


Do you think that the amount of antibiotics prescribed twice daily is 'safe' for Butters' body weight of .18 grams? We just want to make sure the vet knows what she is doing, and you guys are so knowledgeable! At first we were worried the antibiotics were overpowering him, but now it seems he wasn't on them long enough!!

Thank you guys so much for your help and quick replies!!

[alison03]

Also: I've read about amoxicillin on the web (and searched it on this site too). We don't want to self medicate him and the vet was quite against it, but I found a website that says vets often will say that but it's been known to help:

http://www.ratfanclub.org/resp.html

http://ratfanclub.org/firstaid.html

again since the antibiotics seemed to have worked, I don't want to throw anything else into the mix. But I'm thinking about getting some at the fish store (the only one in town that actually carried it) for some "just in case" moments with Butters or his two brothers.

Oh! An update on Butters too: right now he's up with us and is moving slow, and is kind of wobbly still. But at least he is up and not laying on his side or anything. Hopefully we'll be able to get his antibiotics rolling so he won't get to the point that he was at before!

[lilspaz68]

Hmmm...he's young but is it possible your boy had a stroke?  Does he seem weaker on one side or the other?