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General introduction with a few specific questions

3K views 19 replies 8 participants last post by  ray 
#1 ·
Hello all,

I have a few specific questions, but I first want to give you some background for prospective.

Less than a week ago, my 16 year old son decided to come home with a little hairless rat. The pet shop was selling him as a "feeder" rat. He cost $4.50. He was told he's about 3 months old. His body is about 4" long and his tail is about 3" long and his body might be and inch and a half wide. People say hairless rats are ugly. IDK...this guy is pretty darn cute if you ask me.

Anyway, being the 16 year old, he's not exactly on his A-game with respect to the learning curve, so I am his wingman for now. I've been reading and reading and sending him links to read too. But I have a few questions:
  1. Does anyone have any opinions of feeder rats being kept as pets? Are there any concerns that I might have considering this?
  2. I fully expect to "need" to get a second rat for long term health, but I have read in one place that hairless should be housed with another haired rat, while other sources have stated that hairless should only be housed with other hairless. Which is better? Can you explain why?
  3. Considering he's about 3 months and you all agree that it fairly accurate given his size, when do you suggest getting him a companion? Soon, like any day now or within a certain period of time? When is best?
  4. Based on the above, this kinda dictates when I need to get a new habitat for him (them). I expect that an 18x24x32 will be reasonable for the two. Thoughts?
  5. Specific to this little guy, I have noticed that his water bottle does not seem to be draining down. I have not seen him drink either. I have been changing the water (RO water) each day and return the level back to where it was just so I can keep track. This has me a little concerned. Do some rats not like the, I don't know what you call them, hang on water bottles that have the little metal ball at the end?
That's good for now, but if you happen to have any specific links you'd like me to read, please pass it on. If there are any specific habitats that you'd suggest, please pass on the specific links to it.

Thank you all,

Adam
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I think hairless rats are cute as well. Your new ratty sounds like a sweet little nakie :)

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1). Feeder rats are the same as any other pet store rat. All pet store rats come from rodent mills, and most of the time the ones without any patterns are separated and sold as feeders. This is simply because pet stores know that "pretty" rats are easier to sell, so they can jack up their price and sell them as "pets". Now all my girls have also been pet store rats, and they've all made great pets! They only issue is that your boy will be more prone to health issues than a breeder rat (just like my girls), as he wasn't bred for health. He also may be a bit more skittish than a breeder rat, as rat mills don't breed for personality either. Now out of my 5 girls, 3 have amazingly friendly personalities, and the others came around pretty fast, so I'm sure he'll come around soon (if he hasn't already). You shouldn't really have any concerns human illness wise, as very few rat illnesses are zoonotic.


2). This is really your decision. Now, housing him with a hairless or another furry rat will both have different benefits and downsides. If you house him with another hairless, they may get cold easier, simply because neither of them has the fur to trap air as insulation. On the plus side, a hairless rat will probably be more "delicate" with him, as they too will scratch easier than a furred rat. If you house him with a furred rat, he'll have an easier time keeping warm, but he may be scratched up more often, simply because furred rats are used to having a layer of fur between their nails and skin, and thus can play harder without being hurt. Either way, once the rats adjust to each other, they should be just fine.


3). Get him a companion as soon as possible. This is for a few reasons. Firstly, a companion will make his life much less stressful, and give him a friend to help him adjust to his new home. Secondly, its easiest to introduce young rats, so any introductions done now will be a breeze. Lastly, I assume you can't do a proper quarantine (meaning a different airspace (house) being used to house the new rat), so if you adopt a rat from the same place, you'll be minimizing the chances of introducing any new airborne illnesses.


4). Assuming that you're going by inches, and that those measurements go height, width, and depth, that cage will easily be able to house 2 rats. You can check how many rats your cage can hold at this rat cage calculator: http://www.rattycorner.com/odds/calc.shtml


5). Check the metal ball in the water bottle. Is it easy for you to press down, or do you need to push it hard for it to work? If you need to push hard, your bottle could be jamming. In any case, I always recommend at least 2 water bottles just in case one stops working. Anyways, if its not the bottle, ask your son how the rats were giving water in the shop. If your rat was previously given water by bowl, he may not know how to use a water bottle. If that is the case, try putting a thin layer of honey or baby food on metal ball. This will get your ratty to lick the ball, and teach him that there's water inside it. Another thing is if your giving him lots of wet food or vegetables, he may simply not be drinking as he's getting enough water through his food. Lastly, if your bottle is very large, he may just not be drinking enough for you to see the water level drop. I doubt this though, as rats drink a lot of water for such small animals. In any case, I'd try the honey method to be safe.


I posted a pretty long but condensed version of some ratty basics on your other post, but I'll post it here as well:


Lab blocks are the recommended rat diet, as they contain all necessary nutrition, with Oxbow and Harlan Teklad being some of the best qualities ones. But as rats can eat just about anything that we can, just about any treat will be happily accepted (they're very food motivated, to say the least :p). I recommend a liquid treat when taming, as that requires the rat sit next to you while eating it. Meat baby food seems to be universally loved by rats, and mine will do anything for it! You can initially place it on a spoon, and as your rats learn to lick the spoon instead of bite it, you can then place the liquid food directly onto your hand.


Rats are quite prone to respiratory issues, so any perfumes and such near the cage is a bad idea. All rats are born with Mycoplasmosis, a bacteria which their body usually keeps under control, but which can flare up under certain conditions (such as stress). As this bacteria has no cell wall, antibiotics can't kill it, so when it flares up, we treat the symptoms and any secondary infections that may occur when the rats immune system is weakened. Rats are also prone to URI's, pneumonia, mammary tumors (and tumors in general), abscesses, cysts and bumble foot. Otherwise, they're pretty hardy little creatures. I'd set aside a vet fund, as any vet treatment for rats can be expensive, and as it's quite easy to get attached to rats, you'll definitely want to be able to afford any treatment.


With all of that said, I'd say that rats make awesome pets. They're cute, friendly, and intelligent, and many people refer to them as "mini dogs". Their intelligence makes trick training fun and easy, and as rats age, they have a tendency to become more mellow and cuddly (although males are more known to become "cuddly" as they age, my older female also seems to love cuddling).


(Note: If your looking for a good replacement cage, I recommend the critter nation. It's sturdy, good quality, spacious, and best of all, easy to clean! Plus it has one of the only "easy to remove" shelves that I've seen in cages, as the shelf itself is actually resting upon a metal frame which you can "plug in" to different holes in the cage's frame. And as a bonus, if you decide that you want more rats, its super easy to add their "extra" cage to any of their other models. I currently have the single critter nation, and my girls adore it! Here is a link to the critter nation site: http://www.critternation.net/)

Anyway, good luck with your ratty! :)
 
#3 ·
Hello again! Thank you for the reply. Here are a couple follow-ups.

1. Feeder rats for pets...OK. Sounds good. That being said, as for getting him a companion, do you all suggest getting another feeder rat or getting a pet store rat?

2. Hairless with furry or not....In this case I will likely go with a furry campanion.

3. Timeline on getting a companion...Ok. I will probably need to do this over the weekend. This also leads to getting a larger habitat at the same time. This leads to #4...

4. Yes that was inches. I am still searching for the one I like. I need to do this quick!!

5. I will do what you said about the water.


Here are some follow-ups:

  • How fast do these guys grow to full size?
  • Should I go directly to an 18" x 24" x 32" type sized enclosure for these little guys or is it better to get a smaller cage and let them grow a bit more? Basically is there a disadvantage to putting the little guys in an adult home?
  • Potty training....is this something I should start right now? I think so....

Reason I ask is currently I'm using recycled newspaper (crumbled up) bed. It's nice and soft, but I gather the proper substrate for potty training is a simple paper towel or cloth that can easily be used to "clean up" the poop and place it in the litter box. Currently, I have little way of doing this with his current substrate.

My 16 year old is going to really love it when I tell him that I am going to use his bank account to pay for all this stuff!! Hey, he brought home the rat without doing his own due diligence and research. Life has consequences, like it or not. Lemmy Weaks will not bear the brunt of his ignorance. I do have to hand it to him for coming up with a good name...Lemmy Weaks. See South Park...LOL!!
 
#5 ·
1). In my opinion, it doesn't really matter. Both pet store and feeder rats will have come from the same source, so I suggest just picking out the friendliest male you can find. Any rat that walks up to your hand or goes limp when being picked up is bound to have a great personality. If the feeder store won't let you interact with the rats before purchase, I'd suggest going to a pet store. This is just because I personally like to find the friendliest rats possible, and the best way to do so is by interacting with them in the store.


2). I'd suggest starting on litter training as soon as possible. You'll need to take all his feces and place them in the box everyday, while also making sure that the box is never too full (as that will discourage him from going there). Rats are much harder to "pee" litter box train, simply because they mark anywhere regardless. Some people have luck placing a large flat stone into their litter boxes. Rats love to pee on stones, so this may work for you as well. If it does work, you'll want to boil the stone occasionally to clean it.


As for substrate, I wouldn't use fleece until your rat/s are almost completely potty trained. Fleece isn't very absorbent, and while some people remedy this by placing a towel underneath the fleece, it still starts to smell quite fast if the rat/s aren't almost completely litter trained. You can switch to aspen shavings if you want to see the poop better, as aspen shaving are light in color (and their generally recommended as rat bedding). As for your base, its really up to you on whether you want a deep base while your ratties being litter trained. I would personally have one, as rats really know how to get their shavings out of the cage if you have a standard base. You can buy cement mixing pans with deep bases at most department stores if you decide you want to use one (its cheaper then buying them specifically for a cage).


It sounds like your doing your research, so keep it up! :)
 
#6 ·
I'm going to pipe on on 5) because I had the EXACT same issue with the two rats I got just under three weeks ago.

I found out that the bottle had jammed, but after an adjustment it started working.
After, when the water still didn't go down, I found they didn't even know how to use it. I used the honey trick and they figured it out.
However, Luna just turned out to be odd as she just doesn't like using the bottle. For that reason, I leave in a small, weighted bowl of water as well. This way, Nyx gets to use the bottle, Luna gets to use the bowl, and if either has something wrong with it there is another source of water.

Good luck!
 
#7 ·
Lol, my rats also prefer a water bowl to the bottle. Unfortunately, they're too messy when I give them the water bowl, so now they only get to drink from the water bottles in the cage, and they get to drink from the water bowl during free-range. Have you ever tried putting ice in your water bowl? My girls always try to stash the ice, all while trying not to get wet! XD
 
#8 ·
People usually say rats are full grown by 6 months but personally I think a year is more accurate. I've had a rat that went through a growth spurt at 10 months.
 
#9 ·
I would recommend getting a properly bred rat as a companion. As pet store rats and feeder rats (both mostly from rat mills) are not bred for health or lifespan they are more prone to getting sick, which will result in more vet trips and $$$ spent. If you get another pet store/feeder rat, you increase your chance of having to shell out money for a vet by x2. Get a rat from a proper breeder (not a backyard breeder) whos more likely to be relatively healthy
 
#10 ·
I love hairless rats. I had three brothers who were rescues and they were absolute dolls. Plus hairless rats are super warm!!! I would walk around with my boys on my shoulder like little heating packs lol.
Anyways, I would recommend starting them off with the biggest cage you can because they'll use all the space you provide.
I liked eco bedding for my hairless boys, it's very soft and has virtually no dust. They did NOT like wood shavings, I just don't think it was comfortable for them.
If you do go and get a petstore/feeder rat listen to their lungs to make sure there's no clicking, be sure they're not sneezing a lot, and look at their nose to see if they have any red stuff on it (it's not blood, it's porphyrin and it can be a sign of respiratory distress). Also be sure it's a male. Lots of people accidentally take home rats of the wrong sex from pet stores because they don't separate by gender and often times younger males' balls won't drop especially in stressful situations so... be careful and maybe check out a sexing guide.

For your hairless guy I might make a couple of care recommendations that you may have already heard because you seem to have done your research!
Their skin can get dry so I would rub olive oil on my boys once a week. Also, because of their lack of facial hair they can get irritants in their eyes so I would use a slightly damp makeup sponge (doesn't leave debris behind) and wipe their eyes very gently daily. If it comes away a bit red that's the porphyrin and it's normal since there's no fur to hide it, it just gets wiped onto their faces when they groom. If there's a LOT of red he may be sick so listen to his breathing. Those are just my recommendations but like I said you may already know all that :)
 
#11 ·
Ray,
Thank you!
Yes he's a boy!
Very good points. I have read all your comments, except for daily eye wipes. Good to know. Another thing you have me thinking about is this....

I plan on getting the Critter Nation today (used - I hope the guy doesn't flake out on me). Also, I plan on lining all the trays and bottom with fleece. This leads me to a concern that the hairless guy will want some areas that have some dedicated fluffy bedding. Currently he's using recycled newspaper. I'm not familiar with Eco Bedding. Got a link? I'll do a search. Anyway, now I suspect I will include a "house" within the CN that has a dedicated area with bedding in addition to the fleece lining. Thanks for the tips!!
 
#12 ·
I plan on lining all the trays and bottom with fleece.
Fleece works well in Critter Nation cages because the plastic pans are so shallow (they don't hold a loose substrate very well a all). There are some nice benefits to fleece. First, it's synthetic so the surface will stay dry. It can also save you some money because, unlike a loose substrate that has to be thrown away regularly, fabric liners can be washed and reused.

There are considerations when using fleece, however. Because fleece is synthetic and not at all absorbent, pee will wick through the fleece and pool on the plastic pan underneath. This will get smelly very quickly. It's highly recommended that an absorbent layer is placed underneath the fleece. Some people use Uhaul furniture pads, incontinence pads, or towels underneath the fleece. You can cut the absorbent layer to the inside size of your pan and then wrap fleece around it, using binder clips to hold it in place. This method works for some but it didn't work for my boys at all. They chewed the carp out of the fleece when it was wrapped around the pans. I ended up using this Ratropolis tutorial to make reversible "mats" with Uhaul furniture pads sandwiched between layers of fleece. I didn't even clip them down.

Fleece liners, even with an absorbent layer, get smelly much, much more quickly than a loose substrate. They often need to be swapped out and washed a couple times a week. This was another reason why I liked the "mat" style more than the wrap-around liners. They were much quicker to swap out.

Some people say you can't use fleece unless your rats are 100% litter trained. I totally disagree. It's definitely better if they're litter trained but they just need to be swapped out more often if they're not. I've never even had a group of rats that were "100%" litter trained. If you're going to use fleece, I would recommend that you at least provide them with a litter box and try to train them. I think it's actually a lot easier to litter train a rat if you're using fleece because it's easier to collect all of the poops and place them into the box.

This leads me to a concern that the hairless guy will want some areas that have some dedicated fluffy bedding.
Absolutely. This. This for all rats! :) You can provide your rats with different types of nesting materials so you can figure out what they like the best. Newspaper (blank newsprint is better because ink contains chemicals), paper towels, scraps of fleece of varying sizes, and crinkled kraft paper all make great nesting materials. You just want to avoid anything with long fibers or strings that can get tangled up.

I'm not familiar with Eco Bedding. Got a link?
Eco Bedding is just crinkly kraft paper marketed for pets. You'd want to get the green bag, not the blue bag. The blue bag is the "odor control" version that contains fragrances (which should always be avoided). Being that Eco Bedding is marketed for pets, it's crazy-stupid expensive. Staples sells the same crinkly kraft paper as a packing material and it's much cheaper. You can order a 10 lb. box online and have it sent to your nearest Staples location for $18.29.

Anyway, now I suspect I will include a "house" within the CN that has a dedicated area with bedding in addition to the fleece lining.
Definitely. I think it's a good idea to provide at least one hiding house/hut for each rat. This way they can be alone if they want. These don't have to be expensive. They can even just be cardboard boxes that you throw out each week with a cage cleaning. Soda boxes or small Amazon boxes work great. I also use small utility storage bins that I had laying around.
 
#13 ·
Completely agree with the above post! I do buy the Eco bedding (which as explained above, it really just crinkled brown paper), and just put small handfuls in their houses each time. I also use tissues, ripped cardboard, pieces of fleece/blankets, and even holey clothing as bedding.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Hello all and thank you CorbinDallasMyMan for the great feedback!!

Here's an update. I have quite a bit of news and need help!!

I drove across Phoenix to buy a used Critter Nation only to find it was a Ferret Nation with chicken wire mesh all around it to make it rat safe. It was super dirty and needs TLC, but otherwise was in reasonably good condition. I spent $70.00 on a double decker. Not a bad deal. My thought is that I need the wire mesh on there until these guys get old enough to not be able to fit through the 1" spacing. I'm guessing 6 months from now (9 months old).

Anyway, first of all, thoughts on that? The guy said he'd buy it back from me if it doesn't work out. So I need your input.

Next up is the trays or really lack of. The trays are just flat piece of plastic that slip into the metal shelf frame. They are not "trays" of sorts. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is or will be. I can certainly find a tray to set on top of the racks, but IDK....Need some feedback on that issue.

Other than that, the cage just needs to be cleaned up really well.

The other big news is I have a second rat already. When my son went out and got his, the other kids with him all got one too. They were all the cheap feeders, except for one kid that wanted to one-up his buddies and spen $20.00 on a fancy one. That rat was sold in the pet section. I know, I know, this was NOT the plan and was not my intention to get a rat from a pet store, BUT, the kid that had the fancy one was already losing interest and his mom, although she really liked him, did not want to get a second one. So we have him now. He's definitely more social them Lemmi (the feeder rat). You can really see the difference in the two rats.

Anyway, because they were in the same store, I did not see a significant reason to quarantine and at the same time, they'd still be in the same house. I put them together and they immediately started preening each other (well more the pet rat was preening the feeder rat). That then lead to to some rougher "play", it was not really play at all. Then it got rougher, and my wife started to panic. and then it stopped. The two went to opposite sides of their woefully small cage and have ignored each other since. They are both about the same size. So, I'd say that went pretty well.

I need to get the Critter Nation up and running soon, but my son needs to do the heavy lifting on that project. He won't be home until very late tonight, so best case scenario is tomorrow, I'm thinking Sunday probably.

Any words of wisdom, please send it my way!!

And please, I have thick skin and I'm very new to this. If I'm completely out to lunch on anything, speak up and call me out on it. Please!!

Thx!

Adam
 
#15 ·
That's annoying- I hope the craigslist guy simply didn't know what he had and wasn't trying to be deceptive. The ferret nation, of course, has vertical bars, so this might be a factor in deciding to keep it. Horizontal bars are easier to 'decorate' and are more ladder-like for climbing ratties. Also consider that some males don't get very large and it might be a concern. Additionally, if you add new babies to your pack you will have to put the wire back on.

Are the pans stock or are you saying this guy retrofitted something else to fit? The stock 'pans' really are flat but they do have a very small lip around the edges- nothing that would hold in loose litter, but it technically is a raised edge. I believe that you are planning to use fleece liners? If so, you can use these stock pans - many variations on how to use the fleece, I think Corbin mentioned a few options. If you are leaning towards wood chips or loose litter then you could look at other ideas. I make my pans 4 inches high out of cloroplast and don't use the stock pans at all.

Keep an eye on the boys. The general rule is 'no blood no foul', but it will depend on your comfort level. If things get too rough, consider separating them and researching the 'carrier method' of introductions seen here:

http://www.ratforum.com/showthread.php?193945-Introducing-Rats-using-the-Carrier-Method

Cheers!

Edit: Check the cage for rust...you might want to consider repainting it if it is in very poor condition. However, this will need around two weeks to cure.
 
#16 ·
Hi all,

So I caved...I could not stand looking at them in the little critter cage. So I went to work on cleaning up the FN cage. It was super dirty, but cleaned up very well. So the vertical bar thing will most certainly be an issue for them. For now its quite perfect in that the wire mesh makes it super easy to climb. Plus my wife does not mind looking at the wire mesh. So happy wife....yeah.

Ok, so they are both in the new home and the two rats and myself have all sighed relief. Honestly it was stressing me out seeing them in there little cage. Not its a joy to watch them actually get up to a short distance "run". They have not made their way up to the second level yet. That's still scary.

So, for 70 bucks, he's hardly out much, plus, should he decide to get a proper CN, I can call up the guy and he'll buy it back. I should charge him more being that it is clean!!

I hope to get this "mat" thing figured out tonight so that tomorrow we can all go shopping for rat gear.

I will post some pictures too.

Keep it coming folks. Keep teach me!!
 
#18 ·
Hey Adam, The mat style liners are a little more time consuming to make and pretty much require a sewing machine. Here's a video. There could be other ways to make things like this. This is just one way to do it.

A quicker way to make liners for the pans is to first cut the absorbent layer (Uhaul pad) to the inside dimensions of the pans. Then, cut the fleece a couple inches larger than the pans all the way around. Set the absorbent layer into the pan, set the fleece on top of it, and wrap the excess around the sides of the pans. You can use large binder clips to hold the fleece in place around the edge of the pans or you can safety-pin the fleece in place on the underside of the pan (see link).

How often the liners need to be washed will depend on how quickly they start to smell. I swap out and wash the liners in my boys' cage every 3-4 days.
 
#20 ·
The difference between the "feeder" and "pet" marketed rats is often that ones taken out to be pets, while they typically come from the same place, are socialized by employees who handle them for fun so that may be some of the difference you're seeing. It may also be that your new little guy was made a pet because he was more friendly than the others.
My recommendation for CN/FN is to put fleece on the partial levels and a large home depot cement mixing tub in the bottom to hold bedding. It tends to be a bit more sanitary than fleece and allows for burrowing and nesting. I removed my second full level bc my girls climb like crazy and just hang up lots of baskets and hammocks so they can't fall but if you want to keep that you could use the original tray and line it with fleece or get a second cement tub and cut a whole for them to exit through into it. I also use fleece "scraps" for extra bedding. Basically once my girls eat a fleece to death I cut it up and they use it to nest. They also chew the fleece less if they have enough nesting material, tbh.

Edit: link to cement mixing tub: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasgad-Black-Large-Concrete-Mixing-Tub-887102C/205451585
 
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