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Squamous cell carcinoma of the zymbal gland?

7K views 45 replies 7 participants last post by  raquel 
#1 ·
I have a 2 year old tan and white hooded fancy (male, neutered) with no previous heath issues. He is currently on baytril as a preventive measure since he was showing a little discharge and one of his cage mates is currently sick with pneumonia.

This evening I found a small hard lump at the base of his right ear. Is is very firm and does not move with the skin. It appears that he has been scratching it. It is roughly 1/2 inch in diameter.

My research leads me to believe it is squamous cell carcinoma of the zymbal gland.

Other possibilities are a facial cyst or abscess.

Any ideas? What do you think it might be? is there anything I can do if it is the cancer? If it is the cancer, what will he go through and how long do you think he has?

My little Bean (my rat with the pneumonia) might not be here if it were not for your help and guidance (your the best Kinsey!), Thank you for everything and if you have any ideas about Sputnik please be honest, I would like to know what it is even if it is not what I want to hear.
 
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#3 ·
It could be an abscess, and possibly an inner ear infection that has caused fluid build up, but honestly, I have nothing to offer but ideas and guesses. It would be good if you could smell the ear and possibly post a few photos..someone else may know more than I do, and I might have something to add about it if I see it.
 
#4 ·
I will get photos up by this afternoon. When I tried to post photos on the forum I got a notice saying that the file was too big. I will post the pictures on my photobucket and provide a link.

I found these pictures last night, I though I would go ahead and link them while I worked on getting Sputniks photos up. Sputniks lump is identical, except a little smaller

http://ratguide.com/health/figures/squamous_cell_carcinoma_figure_2.php

What does the infection smell smell like? I just sniffed his ears (I tried the mouth too, but that did not go so well) and I could smell something, but I think it was just his normal scent.

I know smells are hard to describe, but if you could tell me if I am smelling for sweet, bitter, sour, strong etc. it would help a great deal.

Thank you so much!
 
#7 ·
alrighty.... the rat photo shoot did not go well. You can't see the lump in any of the pictures because 1. he is a blur of rat energy and 2. he is such a light color and with such thick fur that you cannot make out the growth.

The pictures that I posted previously are the best examples I could find.

I sniff checked him again and he still smells the same. Now I am sneezing like crazy lol.

I am still searching for a vet. The vet I got the baytril from I was not too pleased with (hardly any rat knowledge, crazy expensive, $100 for a 2 min office visit alone!!!!) So far, no luck, but I will keep looking.

What am I looking at if he has ZGT? Will he suffer? is it fast? slow?
 
#8 ·
If the lump is right below his ear it could be several things but the first thing we think of is ZG as its probably sadly the most common. The other sad thing is that ZG is not recommended for surgical removal. Its a watch and wait and manage any discomfort until it's his time.

Have you checked the lump to see if there's a scab on or near it? Could it possibly be an abscess from a tussle with a ratfriend?
 
#9 ·
There are several scabs near the lump. At first, I thought it had to be just an abscess, but then I realized it felt nothing like one. I have dealt with abbesses before and they have all been fairly squishy and move with the skin. Also, my abscess rats tend to squirm away in discomfort if I poke at the lump. Sputnik's is as hard as a rock, does not move with the skin, ad despite his antisocial personality, he did not push me away.

:,( Poor buddy! The one thing that gives me comfort is that he old and has had a good long life. I am still very upset though, he just turned 2 and since he was fixed when I got him and has been heathy all his life I was thinking he might last a little longer.

I will keep everyone updated. This is the fist time I have dealt with this type of cancer and I will probably have a bunch of questions about how to maintain quality of life.
 
#10 ·
I will link you to Twiggy's adventure with what I thought was a parotid salivary tumour but acting a lot like a ZG. It ended up being one of the worst abscesses ever. Abscesses can fool even the most experienced of us and have done so for me many times. The only way to truly tell is to get an FNA at the vet (fine needle aspiration of the lump) to see if its solid, has pus inside or cystic material.

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,118/forum,rat/topic,4083229.0

I have had abscesses rock-hard, and sometimes with a bit of give and the same with tumours, you just cannot tell.
 
#11 ·
It wouldn't hurt to hold a damp cloth on it, even if you think it's a tumor, it may surprise you by being an abscess. I don't think it could make anything any worse. Getting an FNA done is a good idea, too, but I know you've had vet bills like crazy lately, so it may be worth a try to do this, at least for a few days.

I've had abscessing that is rock hard, a cyst that was rock hard and purple in colour, and abscesses that were softer. At least with my rats, they tend to be harder feeling and can seem scary until they burst and there's nothing in there. I had one develop a core, as well, and it ended up being an absolute pain to remove. (small amount of pain meds, then snipped the edges away and pulled it out, it wasn't attached, just big and yucky) That particular abscess was really weird, it was normal at first and very small, and cleaned out really well, healed up, and then came back after a couple of weeks with a core. I ended up having to cut the outer scabby-thing/skin thing off (like lilspaz did in her thread, it's not as bad as it sounds) and going from there.


lilspaz, That was a huge abscess, holy crud. I'm glad he wasn't PTS.
 
#12 ·
Dang! Those pictures of Twiggy are amazing! I am so glad you saved your little boy, what a story!

I will try to warm cloth on Sputnik and see where it gets us. I happened to read up on abcess treanemt just a few days ago (the sticky) Who knew I would need to practice it so soon :-\

I will check into the FNA, I still need to find a good vet, which seems just about impossible right now. We have started looking into vets that are located 3-5 hours away, still, not much luck >_< None of them seem to take care of rats, and they always refer me to vets in my area that supposedly care for small exotics. the vet I took Bean to a week ago is the 'premier' small animal vet in the area, and I am NOT going back to her. Her prognosis ended up being correct, but I she was somewhat rude when I voiced my fears about the choke, and she just brushed me off (hence my panicky thread!). Her prices were also astronomical. I don't even want to know what an FNA would cost if a choke treatment was $500. Also, $50 for two weeks of Doxy seemed a little steep. When I looked online I found that it cost about %10 of that from pet drug suppliers!

I had no Idea abscesses had such variety! I am going to be watching it very closely and see what I can do. Sputnik is not going to like the warm cloth, I hope I can get him to co-operate. His scabs are around the lump, not on it. I don't know if that makes a difference, but it looks as though he is trying to scratch with his back leg and can only get so far before the lump stops him.

Poor buddy. Get better Sputnik! Mommy loves you too much to say goodbye!
 
#14 ·
I'd be annoyed at even getting charged for an FNA, let alone charged a lot...my vet either did it free or for 5 dollars, something like that. I was in there already, getting antibiotics for a URI. He was finished with it in around 10 minutes and they were good to Romeo, even though he hated having a needle stuck in his tummy. The tech adored him, and was petting him and reassuring him when he came back out, she loved him, everyone there adores my rats. The little guy ended up back there for surgery in 3 days, as the cyst had doubled in size overnight. It was fine, one post-op abscess but he healed fast. Turns out there was a large cyst, which was made of hard grey tissue, and had some yellow pus inside it, and a smaller "seed" that was growing into another one. He actually showed them to me after the operation, very informative to see what exactly was cut out, if you're not squeamish!

Anyway, the little guy will put up with it if you're patient..try putting baby food on your finger and letting him lick at it while you hold the cloth on. He might get distracted- it isn't like it will hurt, so he'll eventually get used to the idea, especially if you have food.

The lump might hurt him, and if he cannot bite, he may scratch, trying to relieve the discomfort.
 
#15 ·
I live in the Hampton roads area of Virginia, near the shore, about 45 minutes from the NC boarder.

Out of sheer curiosity, I called my 'current' vet (the one I am never going back to) to get a price on an FNA. I have no intention of taking any of my rats there again, but I was too curious about the price to resist. The grand total?

$98+ lab costs!

?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Are they kidding?! I was going to ask how much a cyst removal would be as well, but I was too busy trying to digest the price that they had just quoted to ask. My guess is that it would be around $700-1000 based on past experience. NUTS!!!!!!

I had no Idea cysts grew so rapidly! Maybe this is a good sign... I noticed that sputniks lump seems to be growing at an very fast rate, it has already seemed to grow by about 25% since I first posted on this thread. It is also taking on a slightly purplish color, but is still mostly pink. THink a very soft baby lavender.

Tumors don't normally grow that fast do they?

I am about to try the warm cloth. I picked up some more baby food this morning so here is to hoping! I will update later today with how it went.
 
#16 ·
Ok, Here is how everything went down.

No Change in the lump. I was able to hold the cloth on his lump for about 5 minutes (intermitanly through all the struggling and re-dipping to stay hot) and nothing Oozed. I was trying to continue, but we reached a breaking piont with Sputnik squeaking as if I were trying to kill him and and atempting to bodily throw himself from the table. Since he is notmaly a very mellow rat, I took this as a sign that it was tiime to quit for now.

I will try again with my husband. maybe with the two of us (one holding, one feeding) it will go better.

The lump is still hard and pinkish with a tinly bit of perple. He is acting himslef otherwise; good energy level, hungry, thirsty and as fat dumb and happy as ever. :)
 
#17 ·
It could be a cyst, it could be a tumor, they can grow very fast, or it could be an abscess. It's pretty much down to getting it tested to really know.

More than a hundred dollars for an FNA? Whoa. I think that's a bit much. I could see them charging an office fee or a few dollars, simply because of the time and materials they use, but 98? O.O

All my vet did to figure out what the lump was is needle the lump and look at the cells under a microscope. (I think. I didnt watch him but I think that's what I remember him saying) He told me it was a cyst and would be harmless unless it kept growing. It kept growing, so we got it removed. :)
 
#18 ·
Alright, I am back to needing a vet then... >_<

Geeze, I have microscopes at my disposal, if I could get a vet to draw a sample and learn what I was looking for I could do it myself without spending a hundred-somthing dollars! Grrrr..... I wonder if my horse vet friend can help me?

Still no luck with the abscess treatment. It is really hard to do though, so it still might be an abscess, and I just have to wait a little longer to drain it.

Come on Sputnik, work with me here.....

I will keep you all posted. Thank you so much for sticking with us through this!
 
#19 ·
GAAAHHHH!!!!! What is happening to my rats?!

I went to give the rats their daily freash food (bannanas today! Yum!) and what did I find? Blood all over the floor.

It turned out it was from Sputniks brother Reepicheep. Looks like he got his arn bit or scratched in a tussle. He is all cleaned up and looking good, except for one detail.

While I was scrubbing him up, I found a lump on him as well. It is not in the exact same place as Sputniks, but is feels the same and is locaded very close to the base of his ear. It is closer to his jaw though, like right where the mandible would meet the scull.

Salivary gland tumor? abcess? ZGT? The poor things are both two years old and rescues from my local SPCA. My guess is that they were proabably an accidental litter from a pet store doe and were dropped off at the shelter by the owner. We are not talking good breeding here.

I am going to treat it as an abcess and see where that gets us.

Sputniks lump is growing like crazy. It has already doubled in size.

They have one more brother living with them, so far, no lumps found on Megatron.

Heard of any good vets in this area? I am getting uber desprate!
:'(
 
#21 ·
He does have really horrible teeth, I forget the term, but his incisors grow crooked and require regular trimming to keep from growing out of his mouth or into his pallet. My husband and I have been doing rodent dentistry on him for about a year, and have been able to keep them in check. The last time we trimmed them was a few weeks ago, I was thinking he was getting long again.

The lump is in the back molar region though, do you think it would be safe to trim them? Can I do anything about a molar abscess or rotting teeth?

will my rats ever be HEATHY again?!

*crys*
 
#22 ·
Frodowisebrandytook said:
He does have really horrible teeth, I forget the term, but his incisors grow crooked and require regular trimming to keep from growing out of his mouth or into his pallet. My husband and I have been doing rodent dentistry on him for about a year, and have been able to keep them in check. The last time we trimmed them was a few weeks ago, I was thinking he was getting long again.

The lump is in the back molar region though, do you think it would be safe to trim them? Can I do anything about a molar abscess or rotting teeth?

will my rats ever be HEATHY again?!

*crys*
You need a good vet. I have pics of inside a couple of my rat's mouths if you are curious? One girl had such a mess inside her mouth that her back molars fell out of the infected flesh...the tissue was too inflamed to hold the teeth in place.

Have you started compressing? YOu said there was a dark spot on it now? ZG can often present as an abscess so you treat as an abscess, but once its burst and "empty" its not really, that's when you find the tumour underneath. If its a real abscess it will empty out with your help.

I have lots of gross pics to help you if you need them...mostly neuter abscesses etc, but they are all really the same.
 
#23 ·
the pictures would be GREAT! Anything to help me out in treating these awful things.

My husband and I have been holding a hot/warm cloth to both sputniks and Reepicheeps lumps (that is compressing right?) but so far, nothing has changed. Sputnik's is huge though, I can't believe how fast it has grown. It is definitely turning more purple now, but he is still his normal self. It's like he does not even know it is there. Same for Reepicheep, but his is not anywhere near as large.
 
#24 ·
Could it be?! Sputniks lump has deflated!

I pretty much figured that we were facing a ZGT based on my futile abcess treatments. The skin under the fur on the lump was turning from lavender to a sickly purple/black color and it grew to a pretty enormous size. I was just trying to keep him comfy and as he was acting normal I thought that he would live out the rest of his days in peace and pass away either naturally or when I decided that his quality of life was so poor I needed to have him PTS.

This afternoon while we were eating lunch, my husband noticed that his lump seemed to have shrunk. I took a look (it had been large as ever this AM) and sure enough, it had gone down to just a slightly raised area. It is still a sickly color though.

I got him out immediately and began cleaning him up. Let me emphasize to you my difficulty.

Sputnik is a rescue, and was not socialized at all as a youngster. I have done what I could, but he has never liked being handled or cared for. He is happiest in his hammock or at the food dish and wants nothing to do with humans or rats beyond using them as a pillow. This makes treating a problem on his FACE of all places very challenging.

As I tried to get him clean I noticed that he seemed wet around the ruptured lump, like something was oozing out, though I did not find anything in the cage. I think perhaps he groomed it off o_O

It smelt of bad corn and STRONGLY. I found some yellowish cottage cheese like stuff coming from the hole, and he also had a little blood mixed in.

After dabbing as best as I could I slathered it up with a triple antibiotic ointment and finally released him. he is now sulking angrily in his cage but not looking too bad over all. I really want to flush it, but I am afraid with all the squirming I will get most of it in his ear and cause an even bigger problem. Will dabbing it as clean as possible and slathering it up do the trick? Or do I need to just risk it with the syringe?

I am assuming now that it was a NASY abscess. Could it be anything else?
 
#25 ·
Nasty abscess but you big-time oopsed. NO ointment. It encourages healing and now you have the very hardest part to do ahead of you. You are going to have to make up a saline solution with warm water and flush out the abscess at least twice a day. Sounds like it burst and that's great but if you leave it alone, or encourage the skin to heal over with infection underneath (the ointment) then it will come back and possibly be worse.

VERY glad to hear you have joined the Abscess Club :D
 
#26 ·
is there any way to keep him still? Right now I have my husband holding him and me doing the work but Sputnik thrashes around so bad and the hole is RIGHT under his ear. I have had him wrapped, unwrapped, scruffed, coddled and fed, but nothing keeps him from squirming/thrashing/squeaking/clawing/nipping. I know that if I flush at least some of it will get in his ear.
 
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