[Rat Daddy]

No, I can't say what makes bags crunching so frightening to wild rats. Whenever I crunched a bag, my part wild rat evaporated while my domestic came for food. In time it got better.

Brown rats tend to play and snuggle together as well as follow each other around, it's part of their bonding behaviors... do you see this with your wood rats? It would be interesting if your rats treat you like they do each other or if they treat you differently. If wood rats don't play with each other, it might be safe to assume they wouldn't play with you. But if they are playful together, then you should be looking for a similar interaction with you.

Brown rats pretty much interact with their humans like they do with other rats. It's not an exact match but it's similar given the size and shape differences.

 

[gotchea]

I assume they run from the bag noise because it sounds like leaves and branches breaking under someone's foot.

 

[lovemyfurries]

I tend to agree with what Gotchae said, because being in the wild their first reaction would be one of fear that someone is getting close and they need to hide.

So cute how Rita was waiting for your cat and Quad going so comfortably on your hand back to the cage is amazing. Three of my boys were running around the lounge the other night while my daughter was watching TV and one must have gotten a fright so he hid under the couch. They normally always come when I call, but it took about half an hour of coaxing to get him to trust me enough to come out. He's been fine ever since and still comes when I call, so all I can think is that something scared him that night, but there's me on all four, blowing smells of yummy treats and calling him. Then I was sitting on the floor talking to him assuring him I was there and there was nothing to be afraid of. Fortunately I'd just that day made some rat treats in the oven ( a mix of peanut butter, banana, cinnamon, flour and a bit of sugar rolled into little snakes. Yummy for them, that got him out

 

[Kucero]

Rita was the star of the show before the babies came along, and it's been difficult to establish equal amounts of time between them. I decided to modify the "maze" cage I made for her. She had no trouble at all when it came to navigating her way around, but I noticed she never spent any time outside of the maze area. The entire lower half of the cage, including the wheel, went untouched. I also wanted to make something that offered a little more privacy, so in the interest of making everything as private as possible, I made a new "holding cell" for her to chill in while I made adjustments to her domicile.

I knew it would take a while, so I made it fairly large, but since it wasn't meant to be permanent, it's put together with hot glue.

The only thing that makes the temporary arrangement noteworthy was Rita looking like she was in jail. She just wanted to be fed, and I was happy to accommodate her.

So heres how I finished Cage #10: Rita's Retreat. She finally decided to nest in the place I intended for her. She even uses the steps leading up to the little cottage. The side tunnel leads to the feeding area, and beneath that is a network of shinies and toys she likes. The cottage is divided; the lower level is her nesting place, and the attic (accessible from the back) is where I've been adding more valuables for her to distribute wherever she likes. So far, so good; she's resumed her usual packrat activity, and seems to like her new domicile.

The problem is that I might have added a little too much privacy. I put cardboard over the sides and the top. The front is acrylic, which offers no air circulation except for the bottom 1.5", which is there for removal of the litter tray. Other than that, the back of the cage has the only exposed mesh. I didn't take ventilation into account when I was making her home nice and dark, but I think there would be adequate ventilation if I remove the lower half of both sides. Would that be enough?

 

[Rat Daddy]

For the most part rodent's in general seem to like cramped dark spaces without too much ventilation. I've experienced the same with my rats, they have a nice airy cage and prefer to nest in an old cabinet.

The common wisdom is that brown rats prefer lots of ventilation despite my personal experience to the contrary. Now as to what brown rats do in nature... I've watched mine dig burrows... you would be very surprised how quickly they can tunnel, for sure these tunnels are dank and not too well ventilated which tends to support the idea of rats not liking too much cross draft in their homes. But I will add one final note, in nature a rat can come out of it's burrow any time it wants too and lie around in the sunshine to warm up and dry off... not that I've even seen a wild rat do it, but it has the option to do it if it wants.

Judging from my own rats, they would prefer solid roof and four solid walls and only a tiny entrance... ventilation wouldn't be their first preference, but I would still have a dry ventilated place in the cage for my rats to go if they wanted to... Given a cage or a big box, my girls will choose the box every time. Go figure...

 

[bloomington bob]

It's great how you keep making these cage improvements

 

[lovemyfurries]

I love her little cottage so cool. I like it

 

[Kucero]

Appa finally took a big step...a few hours ago, she perched her entire body weight on my hand and grazed contentedly. Still nervous, but comfortable enough to shove Quad away when he tried to join her.

Since it was just about time to replenish their fresh fruits and veggies, I went to the store. By the time I got back, they were gone. In my excitement, I forgot to latch the door. Sure enough, I found them under the couch, or rather, I saw them. They were not being shy at all, darting in and out, climbing on top...they were both all over the place. I called to them and watched as they tentatively approached, but when they didn't smell food, they went back to their business. I saw Quad pick up a piece of cellophane and cart it away toward the couch. I left their cage open and put some food in it for them, then moved way off to the side. They ate it. We've done this routine three times now. It would be easy to simply catch them in the cage, but after I try a couple of things first. It'll be interesting to see if/how this pans out.

 

[Rat Daddy]

The object of the exercise would be to make family pets out of wood rats.... They should be able to free range and interact with you outside the cage.... Obviously adult rats aren't manageable unless they want to be and wild rats are way faster and more agile then domestic ones. This is where it really gets interesting.

 

[Kucero]

It didn't take long before they were leaving the confines of the couch area and exploring other rooms. I cut off their access, because even though Agilarr doesn't have any interest in them when they're caged, he would very likely want to play with them if he saw them running loose. He wouldn't hurt them, but he'd scare them into seizures.

At first, both of them came out when they heard or smelled me, but kept their distance unless I had food for them. They were very nervous, even Quad. They'd run and stop about three feet away, then dart back and hide for half a second, then run up and stop two feet away, and repeat this process until they got a bite, after which they'd usually hide under the couch to eat it. It's quite funny to hear the sounds of happy grazing.

No one has verified whether fancy rats do this, but Eastern woodrats will thump the ground with one or both back feet whenever they are nervous or agitated. I'm inclined to believe they cannot control this reflex, because it gives their position away if they are concealed from view. They never did this a single time while they've been out of the cage for the last few days, not when it was just me. My son Auron, on the other hand, seemed to inspire fits of thumping just for smelling different than me. He often complained to me about how distracting it was when he was watching television and hearing the constant thuds of little feet against the floor. When Rita does this little footstomping dance, you can actually feel the floor vibrate in response.

It's a positive sign that the twins didn't thump at me, but I've been trying to figure out what makes them so nervous. It could simply be my size (from their perspective,) or something else completely. I saw Appa appear less frequently; she skipped a few meals and finally stopped appearing beside Quad completely. He didn't mind...more food for him. I wasn't worried about Appa's health, because I could still hear her moving around while Quad was in full view, and there was also the occasional burst of annoyed squeaks from scuffling siblings. It didn't take long to figure out why Appa was snubbing mealtimes; Quad was feeding her. I could hear her chewing while he was back for more. That kind of defeats my efforts at earning trust, so I'm going to cage them again and pick up where I left off.

 

[bloomington bob]

It does seem that you are making slow but steady progress - to be sure there is some regression, but you are venturing into unknown territory - it just may takea lot longer for the rats to feel comfortable around your son, and for Appa to trust you.

 

[Kucero]

I was about to begin this update with another "interesting turn of events" opener when I realized that half the time I'm writing an update, it's because something didn't go according to plan, or the plan didn't have expected results. Veteran rat owners will probably love this one.

Catching the twins again was easy. They were used to going in and out of their cage to eat, and comfort replaced caution. After making sure there were no tails in the way, I tugged the length of fishing line that was tied at the other end to the cage's open door. It was quiet, just loud enough to make them both reflexively twitch a little, although neither of them stopped eating.

I began straighten up the living room, not really looking forward to finding their latrine area, but resolved to do it sooner rather than later. I cleaned up an area for the enclosure, but I fed Rita first, and took my time doing it as I watched Quad rattling the cage bars like a crazed inmate. When it was their turn, I decided to try to coax them (Appa in particular) from the safety of the cage to eat.

Since Quad doesn't have the trepidation issues his sister does, he gets full faster, so he got to run around while I fed his sister. Then I could chase him around and let Appa do some exploring after she was full. That plan didn't work, though, because by the time Appa was full, Quad was under the couch again. I was trying to figure out how he did it when Appa lent a helping hand by showing me. She was about to offer a demonstration when I intercepted her efforts. She bolted, and I used both hands to try to corral her to the cage. She had other ideas, though. She was at the top of the cage when I moved to get her, expecting her to retreat the same way she had come in. No such luck. She launched herself toward my hand. I thought I had won, until she bounced off my hand like a flat stone on water, sailed right over the enclosure's wall, and landed right in the middle of the coffee table. She didn't immediately run for cover, but sat there staring at me for a moment, probably thinking, "YEAH! NOW WHAT!!

I was more than annoyed, but I couldn't be mad at them for doing what was natural. It took nearly two hours, but I got them again. I talked to them the whole time, using my lightest, friendliest voice to promise them death. Regrettably, I had to grab them, and surprise surprise, they still don't like it.

I caught Appa first, still using my best preschool teacher voice to try to sooth her. Predictably, had lots of fear pee and fright poop for me, but I was already prepared with paper towels already on the floor. I kept cleaning her up as she went, talking to her, and noticing that she didn't seem to be stricken with terror. For that matter, she actually appeared somewhat calm. So...why was she still bathrooming on me? Maybe it's the woodrat's version of giving me the finger. Even so, she had limited resources, so when she was finished, I removed the glove from one hand and began petting her. The response surprised me yet again; her eyes started getting heavy almost immediately, and they were completely closed within 15 seconds. When I stood up, still holding her, she didn't struggle. I brought her to the open door, opened my hand, and she simply strolled off my palm and into the cage, then climbed to the top level so she could sit and stare at me.

Neither of the twins would ever eat anything immediately after being handled, but Appa's actions seemed to convey some kind of expectancy, so I gave it a shot and offered her some pumpkin pie...and she actually took it and ate it. Everything she did the whole time, other than the surrender of her bodily functions, was completely opposite of what I had expected.

That same trend in surprises continued after catching Quad. He fought like the devil, struggling and biting and testing the limits of my paper towel supply. I tried something new; when he bit one of my gloved fingers, I gave him a very loud, firm "No!" The first one made him pause, the second one made him release and give me a look that said he clearly thought I had lost my mind. I didn't have him in a position that was comfortable for him, so I started maneuvering him into petting position, he bit again, I told him no again, and he stopped. After three or four of these, I noticed that in his struggles to free himself as I was trying to get him comfortable, his head moved and his mouth opened as though to bite, but he never bit again. It wasn't simply wishful thinking; he had just learned about unacceptable behavior. He accepted the petting session, but stayed wary, and when I brought him to the cage, he strained against my grip and bolted loose once he was inside, then refused any treats while he sulked out of view. It was like he and Appa had switched roles, and I still have no idea what to make of it.

I didn't have the energy left to put the living room back in order. Every piece of that couch is still standing on end.

I still haven't found their latrine area, either. It's possible that they cleaned up as they went.

 

[bloomington bob]

Ah more progress here re Quad stopping biting you and Appa eating after being handled - really interesting to see how difficult it is to overcome instinct and to trust.

 

[lovemyfurries]

I was like "aww" when I read about Appa and then Quad learning NO. So awesome none of my rats ever did the foot stomping thing. When my now 'teenage' boys still get spooked every now and then when having a run around. Sometimes they'll come when I call but then run away, then come again. Sometimes I think it's a game though because when I do pick them up they don't try get away. Maybe the trust is easier or quicker with domestic rats?

 

[Kucero]

I really need to start taking pictures again. The problem is that I need four hands to interact with them.

This was my living room after the last time I caught them.

Progress has been steady. Both of them are pretty much immune to loud noises now. They don't even look up when I turn the vacuum cleaner on. They seem much less skittish overall.

I just finished another session with them. Appa is now comfortable enough to climb all the way into my hand, and there is no longer any hesitation or foot thumping in her initial approach. Once she's full, though, she still runs from me. That's fine, because she's miles ahead of where she was a week ago.

Quad is almost acting like a pet now. The first time I lowered him from the top of the cage to the open door, he was trembling in addition to peeing all over me. He seems to have the hang of it now, especially since I give him treats after he goes inside the cage. Tonight, it was pieces of an apple cinnamon rice cake. The first couple of times, I lowered him to the open door, he sauntered in, turned around, and took the treat. After that, he stopped confining himself to just my hand and started running up my arm. He'd turn around to get his treat before I even had him at the door. Then he started stashing, but I was having so much fun with him, I let him keep doing it. He'd take the treat, hide it, run out of the cage, climb to the top, and stare at me until I put my hand where he could climb on. I finally shut the door behind him so I could focus on Appa.

I tried convincing her to take a short ride, but she's not into that yet. On the positive side, she's not terrified, either. I gave her some treats in between, and she always took them with minimal hesitation. I finally opened the cage so she could go in on her own, and Quad bolted out immediately, scaring her worse than I had done all night. He explored a little bit while I listened to the crunching sounds of Appa eating his stash.

 

[bloomington bob]

Great to see that things are progressing so well!

 

[Nessa]

Test post sorry

 

[Nessa]

Yay! I can post now. I've been reading this thread since a couple days ago and am so happy to hear about your progress and eagerly await your updates.

 

[Rat Daddy]

Finally! I think your wood rats are getting it. They are starting to interact with you and their larger environment. Fear is a hardwired response in rodents, but unlike humans it comes and passes quickly... It doesn't particularly cause stress that debilitates humans.... rats react and then get over it then move on.... If a wild rat sees a predator it runs for cover then when it assesses the treat has gong it goes right out and forages again. Life for a small animal is dangerous, so it's hot wired to respond, but also wired in such a way that it doesn't let fear debilitate it.... Episodes of fear aren't necessarily a bad thing, just something that you have to work through... and now something you can start to teach through...

Try to get them to learn their names and to come on command or at least on suggestion.... Quad is about to start to communicate with you (hopefully) staring at you to get your attention to be picked up is a good start. Brown rats like to be understood, but this comes very natural to them because they are social animals... I'm not surprised that this takes longer with wood rats being more solitary beings.

I'm also kind of happy your rats aren't fighting for territory, which is also common for small non-typically social rodents. I don't think there are many cases where wood rats live in an extended family structure, but hey, the big surprises are the things that happen when you try new things. I learned more about brown rats in a few hours at the beach than I might have learned in a lifetime of observing them in a cage. Rats are dynamic animals that need to interact with their environment to actually learn something and to adapt. If you never engage them with new activities you don't stress them, but they don't learn anything new and they don't adapt or grow intellectually...

I know that sounds harsh to some folks, but it looks like it's paying off for you. Remember, way back when I told you it's all about competence and getting out of the cage and learning to interact as small independent household members? This is pretty much what I was talking about.

Don't take offense that your rats run to stash food, oddly even the best brown rats will often do it.... rats steal from each other, so even if they love you and see you as another rat they still aren't necessarily going to trust you with their food.

I think based on my part wild rat, you are going to find your guys are always going to be wired hot... and fast to take cover and hypersensitive to their environment, that's how they survive in the wild... but they are also going to start learning more every day. Try verbal commands and hand/body gestures to see if you can get them to understand instructions/commands... Keep in mind rats don't actually follow commands, but they do learn to understand and to take suggestions...

Training is going to have it's own challenges, and maybe you shouldn't rush things too much, and there are going to be some setbacks but that's where you are headed next... keep in mind wood rats may never understand verbal commands but may learn body language instead, also keep working on understanding them and try to react consistently to their behaviors so they know what to do to get you to do something predictable too. In other words so they know you can understand them too.

It's taken a while, and I suspected that it would take them getting out of the cage before real progress could begin, but it looks like you are getting there. Being able to keep wood rats alive in a cage as an exhibit animal would not have been much of an accomplishment, but actually raising them to be interactive house pets is a milestone, and perhaps a first ever achievement.

The greatest shortcoming that brown rats have is their short life span. It's especially hard on children to lose their best furry friends every two years or less... I see it with my daughter who loves her rats, but is beginning to see them as a never ending series of tragedies. At nine years old she's already lost most of her best friends, made new ones and lost them again and again... As adults we cope better with loss, but the idea of a rat that can live a whole lot longer is a great bonus. I realize your experiment has been trial and error, but if socializing wood rats is possible, it's likely a process that can be streamlined too.

I've sort of been watching with abated breath since things started to move forward with Appa and Quad, but you might really be on the verge of a major breakthrough...

It wasn't too long ago when common wisdom held that wild brown rats couldn't make good pets, but we've seen enough examples of them becoming great friends to humans to know better now... and then there were those that held that black rats couldn't live as companion animals and that myth has been dis-proven in a big way by Wilder and a few others that have really shone... Last year, I'd say no one would have ever thought of wood rats as pets much less furry friends, and now here we are thanks to you and Rita and Appa and Quad, one step closer to having to rewrite the rules again.

GREAT JOB!

 

[Kucero]

Quad is now at the point that I don't have to be holding anything for him to jump on my hand or climb up my leg and start crawling all over me. The difference in his behavior before and after the breakthrough is phenomenal. There was a certain line he crossed after taking one of those short rides that switched his mentality from "Wow, I barely escaped with my life" to "Hey, that wasn't so bad after all." His motivation is still food, of course, so we haven't gotten into play just yet, but when he starts stuffing himself to the gills with the obvious intent to stash, I have to use my free hand to push him back into the cage.

The reason behind cutting his packratting tendencies short is because it's having an adverse effect on my interactions with Appa. She's figured out that if she just waits, Quad will drop a mouthful and run back to me, leaving his hoard-in-progress unattended and free for Appa's grazing pleasure. She's not yet at the point that she will put all fours in one hand, but if I hold the food out far enough, she'll put her front paws one hand and her back two in the other. She's been doing this with increasing confidence, but she's still so skittish I usually find myself holding my breath while she eats, because the slightest movement sends her scurrying back into the cage.

Not only do they not fight over territory, but they snuggle up together in the same bed. I'm not sure if this is an artifact of their environment, or if they're simply not old enough yet for those solitary instincts to kick in. They will be 3 months old next week, and that is about 20 days past the point in which Rita would have kicked them out of the house had they been born and raised in the wild.

Calling the rats by name isn't difficult; I've always been able to tell them apart, and the differences between their appearance grow more pronounced as they age. Getting them to recognize their names, or any word, will be tricky if it's even possible at all. Because of their instinctive solitary nature, they don't possess the broad variety of communication methods that fancy rats do. Even now, I'm not sure whether Rita approaches me because she recognizes her name, or if she simply recognizes my voice and wants to be fed.

In an earlier post, I mentioned that woodrats and fancy rats don't share the same genera (Neotoma vs. Rattus). From a couple of old archives published in 1952 and 1961, I've since learned why there is a distinction. Woodrats were first noted in 1749 by Peter Kalm, and they were first designated as genus Mus, which is particular to mice. Eastern woodrats in particular weren't discovered/recognized until 1818. In 1819, Thomas Say, widely considered the father of descriptive entomology in the United States, gathered the collective knowledge of the known types of woodrats, and designated the new genus Neotoma. From everything else I've learned through both study and observation, these critters are as different from fancy rats and fancy mice as rats and mice are from each other, and despite how they are named, I don't believe they are true rats.

Finding this forum was part of my ongoing search for an authority on native rats, but I now know that it's not enough to find someone with knowledge of woodrats in general. The differences between the different species are profound enough to necessitate finding someone with detailed knowledge about Eastern woodrats in particular. A few weeks ago, I started contacting higher universities in hopes of speaking with someone who knows more about them than I can learn in cyberspace, but I haven't had so much as a false alarm. The most recent published research I've found on Eastern woodrats is from the 80s, but since it is in no way complete, I'm sure there are people in possession of a wealth of information about them. I just haven't looked in the right place yet.

The most logical approach toward developing any kind of relationship with these critters is to first go with the tried-and-true methods that have worked for pet rats and mice, especially those practices that should logically work with any sentient beings. For Eastern woodrats, sound is third in the list of senses they rely upon for survival, and vision is even further down the list. If I can't communicate with them by sound, I doubt that movements and gestures would produce more positive results. I haven't even been able to modify their behavior with consistent placement. For example, the feeding area for Rita's new cage spans its entire width, but even though I feed her specifically on the left side, she still hasn't developed a habit for approaching me from that same spot. Sometimes, she'll retreat a few inches to graze on the bite she just took, but comes back to the front of the cage in whatever direction she's pointed, not where she should know by now that the next bite will be offered.

I think it's worth noting that Eastern woodrat vision is inferior to fancy rat vision, as far as object detection and identification goes. But while Norways are dichromats, Eastern woodrats can see red, and might very well register the same color spectrum that we do. It might be possible to use color to aid in their training, but I'm not quite ready to start wearing different outfits for them yet.

Even with everything I've already tried and failed with, it's also possible that Quad's breakthrough could be a game-changer. Since he perceives me as less of a threat than he did before, he might respond to stimuli that previously had no meaning for him. I'm glad I didn't erase the drawing board I have to go back to.