[katkurz]

Hey guys, I have had two females for nearly a year now whom I love to death. I recently got an 9 week old neutered male (The adorable little one pictured! This is not him currently) who I have been trying to introduce into the clan. It's proving to be extremely difficult even though people generally say female to young male intros are easy! My alpha girl is seriously alpha, and rubs herself all over me and marks, then attacks the little boy. Not really sure what to do, advice would be GREAT! The little boy literally just lays there and doesn't move, he is completely docile and then my girl will jump on him and attack. I wish I had more experience and could better determine their body language ???

Tried: cages have been next to each other for a little under a week
Put vanilla on the new rat
Had them meet in a neutral place
Given lots of treats

 

[Amph]

Female rats are known to attack very young rats so I would advise waiting until he is at least 12 weeks old before trying again. The older and larger he becomes the better he will able to cope with her harrasment until the pecking order has been sorted out. It may turn out that shes just too territorial but I think it's too early to tell.

 

[katkurz]

Thank you for the reply. I will try waiting a little longer. She is a pretty big girl so I'm sure that wouldn't hurt. My worry is that if she keeps getting at him he'll start to get scared of her and make the process harder. I wish I knew someone in my area who could help me out with this lol. It's just hard for me to tell which fights to allow and which to break up.

 

[Amph]

Most people go with the no blood no foul rule but with really young rats mixed with adults it can be risky. Fighting is a normal part of sorting out the social structure and you should see them wrestle until one is flipped on its back and power groomed. At this point the weaker rat will squeek and lay still in submission. This will be repeated over and over until one gives in..

Bad signs would be hissing, puffed up furr and blood. These are more aggressive in nature and shouldn't be left to continue. Have you tried placing things that smell of the new boy in the girls cage? This will help them get used to his smell. You could also start with the sub female and the male because the more they spend time together the more their scent will become mixed with the girls.

 

[Amph]

bad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGGKsixti0

ok:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07GmK_0eH7M (can be more squeeky)

 

[katkurz]

okay so the video you linked that you labeled as okay, thats more what mine look like during intros. The main difference for mine is that the boy is not instigating or trying to be dominant. He just kinda sits there, I'm guessing scared looking back. Its just Moose (the alpha girl) fighting with him. But through the couple fights they've had there hasn't been any blood. Good signs??

Also Im going to try some more intros with the submissive female for now, thanks!

 

[Amph]

He should be laying still on his back to show submission and at that point she should appear to groom him. If that's what's happening then it's a good sign. If he refuses to lay still to be groomed she will keep on harrassing him, which is also fine as it can take a while to work out. It's only bad if she bites when he's submitting or they can't work out who's boss (no one will lay still to be groomed) and just draw blood.

 

[katkurz]

Okay, thank you so so much. I was already beginning to loose hope. I think i'm gonna stick to intros with the submissive girl until he gets a lil bigger and then try again with Moose.

I let one fight take its course, and it ended with the in a bit of a stand off, some fur pulled out but no blood, and no grooming. And the little boy was pretty jumpy and scared so I took him out.

In the future should I leave him in there to work it out?

 

[Amph]

They will have to be left to sort it out otherwise they will never decide whos boss and keep on fighting. If they end up in a frantic ball of flying furr then hold off but if they are just wrestling to try and pin eachother then leave them be. A video of them would be really useful if possible.

 

[katkurz]

I have videos of them interacting before a fight, but I don't have a video of an actual fight yet. Their fights looked like the video you linked, where they were in the tub and fought. Except the boy doesn't start fights or try to hump them.

If you want a video of them pre fight I can make a video online??

 

[Amph]

Sure Ill take a look.. It might show some body language.

 

[TheRatPub]

good video

 

[katkurz]

This is the link for my video of the rats intro.
This doesn't show them fighting, which happened basically right when I put my phone down and relaxed...

 

[Amph]

They seem happy sniffing rears and want to investigate each other, which are good signs. I didn't see any aggressive behavior from your girls either, he even seemed to actively try to engauge with them at first. The video did possibly show one thing.. When you say "I recently got an 9 week old neutered male!" how recently are we talking? The reason I ask is because when you became involved in the intro he went from walking around intrested in them to freezing on the spot. His body language says to me he's not used to you yet. It may just be a coincidence that it happend during this video but I would consider his reaction to you is confusing the girls. If he is responding nervously to your presence they will sense something is wrong and he will not respond correctly to their communications. That could lead to them attacking him because they might interpret his nervousness as being ready for conflict.

It may not be that but it's the only thing that stands out to me from the video.

 

[katkurz]

Okay, yeah I can see what you mean. I got him about a week ago. It might have also been that he seemed pretty scared of the bathroom? I'm not sure.
He has warmed up more since this video was taken. I will try holding off until he's more comfortable. Thanks for the input!

In this video Moose doesn't really show any aggression. She puffed up a couple minutes after this and went for him. Im guessing this was her establishing rank, now.