I do not have a photo of Caramel I just realised!! but i do have Oreo and Shreddy, for comparison, first picture is Oreo - slim and normal... Second one is Fattus Rattus 😂 I do not understand how they can be so different, so, is she pregnant??

 

she just came out for some food, and shreddy is pancaking in the corner again. I'm worried! But i managed to take some photos of Caramel at least - she is a calico colour, so there is black, and brown, and white, although i'm unsure why she has no fur around her eyes? I love her face when she's eating, the ltittle dumbo ears poking out to the side lol But look at shreddy in the background - she's like a bowling ball 😳

 

she just came out for some food, and shreddy is pancaking in the corner again. I'm worried! But i managed to take some photos of Caramel at least - she is a calico colour, so there is black, and brown, and white, although i'm unsure why she has no fur around her eyes? I love her face when she's eating, the ltittle dumbo ears poking out to the side lol But look at shreddy in the background - she's like a bowling ball 😳

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Hello and welcome, especially in such unexpected circumstances! Hope you and mom and beans are alright. I have no experience with family Rats but you have an excellent advisor in KeithB and I'm sure other RFs can help you. Flying on a wing and a prayer ain't easy, but Rats are excellent mothers so if we give them what they need, they'll do the rest. Well all do our best and getcha through this. 💖🐀😊

 

Hi Shieldmaiden44 and welcome. Oh dear, Caramel does nook very big and round. There is a guidance on caring for accidental litters here: https://www.ratforum.com/forums/caring-for-accidental-litters.30/

If you got her three weeks ago yesterday then for her to be pregnant when you got her she must have mated the day you got her (or maybe the day before), and the babies will be due right now. First thing I would suggest is making 200% sure all of the rats have been properly sexed. The last thing you want is her giving birth with a male present because she will come straight back into heat and get pregnant again. (Obviously if one of your other rats is male then the mating date might be slightly later also).

Have you contacted the breeder to tell them about this and see if they can throw light on how it happened? If they are a good ethical breeder they will probably offer to care for her and rehome her babies. A backyard breeder might agree to this too, though you might want to question their standards of care first.

If you are having to look after them yourself then I would immediately get a single-level maternity cage because it is better to separate the mother/babies from the other rats and once the babies start to explore you do not want them climbing and falling. You are going to need multiple cages in a few weeks anyway when it becomes time to separate the male babies.

Please let us know how things go, and good luck.

 

Hello - thank you for your response! The biggest issue was that I can't handle her yet, we've not had her long and she was very very shy, so what i have done, for now, is to block the bottom of the cage for her. So it's single level, and she's on her own, the other two are above. I do have a tank type of plastic 'box' if you like that i could use, but the worst bit is she now looks depressed, and she sits at the bottom of the ladder thing that normally leads to the upper platforms, and sleeps there too 😭 She has however also built a nest, which is a bit odd.

Now that she is separate, how and when would i reintroduce her? I could try and get her into my big plastic box thing, but i am worried i'll stress her, this seemed the better option. We have ordered some plexi-glass thingies for the edge of the cage which at least would stop them from climbing until they are much bigger.

Is that a good plan? I have no clue what i'm doing tbh... i'll speak to the breeder I got them from as well. How would you tell whether they are reputable?

I basically went on pets4homes and found an advert there.

 

this is their cage - and if you use 3 of hte platforms next to eachother, and block the ladder, then you can turn it into two cages. It is how we first go them used to each other (after neutral ground). They are both definitely female - and maybe she really is just fat 😂 - but she kept pancaking on that top level shelf, that made me very twitchy, you wouldn't want her to give birth there! Someone was building a very elaborate nest on the middle floor in the cube thing, but she was still sleeping in the hammock with oreo. Her and oreo are best friends (it's shreddy who is the fat one btw Caramel is the slim calico) - Caramel is less interested in the other two and spends most of her time sleeping and eating (which at first made me think maybe she was male haha)

 

ah yikes. She decided to go and build the nest after all, and now i can hear tiny squeaks coming from the nest 😨 What is she doing?

 

Congratulations. The tiny squeaks are maybe the babies, or maybe her in childbirth. Babies can be noisy so you will probably know soon enough. I've never been in this situation but hopefully someone with breeding experience will be able to offer you more specific advice. (My advice is only that of someone who has watched lots of Youtube videos about rat care).

If you got them from pets4homes then it was likely a backyard breeder or maybe someone who has had an accidental litter themselves and they will probably not be any help (as evidenced by them having allowed her to get pregnant in the first place and the fact that she is not very handle able).

Don't worry about her being lonely, she will be focussed on her babies now. However, it is a good idea to let her interact with her sisters at least once a day by putting her in with them for a while, as that will give her a little rest from the babies and will maintain her bond with the others so that it will be easier to reintroduce her once the babies have weaned. Obviously if she is still not wanting to be handled that is awkward because you don't want to stress her, but if you can then I'd suggest putting her into her sisters' part of the cage for a while (but not to be away from her babies for more than 30 minutes at a time).

I would not disturb the nest for the first couple of days. When she is in with her sisters you could take a peek, but doing it while she is there will stress her and she might get defensive and bite you. You should give her extra protein when she is nursing - e.g. boiled egg. Watch for any babies who crawl outside the next in case they get overlooked and cold, in which case put them back (avoiding being bitten!).

Other than that I would just suggest following the "information for accidental litters" advice, and if you have specific questions post them here. There are also some fantastic groups on Facebook where you might get faster answers in emergencies. When it comes to rehoming the babies there are Facebook groups for that also. Good luck!

 

Also - babies are tiny and might be able to get through the bars and fall out, so maybe block the bottom of the cage up a bit - even carboard would do. Once they are more mobile it will be more of an issue. What size are the cage bar openings?

 

I can hear lots of little squeaks!! ❤ Poor wee things to end up with someone so unknowledgable like us, but we will do our very best.

Breeder replied:
"Yes they can retain sperm or months so it was probably her own father before the 5 weeks separation date it doesn't happen often but unfortunately it does I really do apologise but it can keep the sperm for a long time and i wouldn't of known anyway they can either become pregnant or absorb it into there body it's a fascinating part off the nature but inconvenient for you I'm so so sorry what would you like to do ?? Xxx"

not sure what to make of that, but it's all done now anyway, and we're going to look after them, and i'm definitely going to need a lot of help and support, i literally haev no idea what i'm doing.

Getting her to spend time with her friends might be tricky, we had her free roaming a week ago and spent almost an hour trying to put her back in the cage (it just felt cruel for them not to roam, but she's very skittish so...)

i'll reply properly later... the cage bar openings are 11mm - it's this one Rodent Cage by Cozy Pet 11mm Bar Spacing for Rat, Ferret, Chinchilla, Degu or other Small Pets, Large Rodent Cage RC05 : Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

thank you so much already though ❤

 

They are very fortunate to have come to you, as you are doing the right thing looking after them yourself rather than returning them to that breeder and are seeking advice about how to look after them properly. Hopefully someone more experienced than me will weigh in soon and be able to offer you more specific advice.

You may be OK with 11mm bar spacing once they start to explore as they will be bigger then, however it is the lack of a tray at the bottom that might be an issue at the moment - when they are tiny they will fit through any spacing, and if they crawl to the edge with no barrier they might fall out. However as you've ordered plexiglass screens that should address that.

The reply from the breeder does not add up. The kittens ought not to have been with the father at all after birth - they should have been with their mother so if the father was present at any point it means that the mother was being bred back-to-back, which is terrible practice. It sounds as if they were maybe in a communal breeding bin like people who are breeding for snake food use, and the breeder was a bit late in separating them. If Shreddy was a very early developer she could have mated before 5 weeks, but reputable breeders would not home babies at that age (8 weeks is fairly normal), so if she is only giving birth now then either the separation age was later (inviting pregnancies), she was homed at 5 weeks (also terrible practice) or she had embryonic diapause (delayed implantation) which sometimes happens with lactating mothers but whether it is also possible for pubescent rats I do not know. Also Googling is suggests that 6-10 days is the maximum for embryonic diapause in rats in which case the dates still do not add up. I would be steering clear of that breeder in future.

 

I'm in agreement with KeithB; even from what little I know the timing of e.d. is off, and unfortunately I suspect a breeding bin or at least shoddy conditions. Poor little things. Well, they're fortunate to have you caring for them. Take a breath, we'll get through. ❤🐀

 

Thank you both so much ❤

So, here is another update... There are definitely a number of babies in there, i am absolutely certain now. I read through the accidental litter thread, and went out and bought some chicken cat treat things, which are mostly meat (as I read high protein is good), she already had half a boiled egg this morning before the litter was born... so we just went and carefully offered a tube of the stuff, carefully squeezing a bit out of it, and she LOVES the stuff. She demolished half a tube, so I'm going to say that is good news, and whilst she was eating and when she moved, there were definite and very loud squeaks of protest coming from within the cube 🤣

She had decided to build her nest in this thing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B073F9GPMK - they have had that for about a year, so the entrances are a LOT bigger than they were originally (and no longer really heart shaped) - she stuffed the thing full of bedding and that's where the little ones are. Chances of them falling out for now are pretty slim i'd say, clever mummy.

We decided to wait before putting the edges in (we've made cardboard ones for now until the others arrive) as don't want to disturb her, and are curbing our curiosity, would love to know how many babies there are!

As for the breeder and the circumstances in which she got pregnant, we'll probably never know (teenage pregnancy and no idea who the father is, i say ;-) ) - but she was definitely older than 5 weeks when we got her, so whatever he's saying is just odd...

Here is a picture of Caramel (the other one, who i think is a lot younger than Shreddie) the day after we got them. And even she seemed older than 5 weeks - when we bought Oreo (and Stormy at the time), they were tiny in comparison, really babyish, so i would say she was older. Anyway, it doesn't matter now - we just had a little bit of drama, Shreddie managed to get into the top part of the cage to visit her friends 😱 a bit of kerfuffle, but we left her in there for a bit, and checked on the babies, but can't see anything.

Once she looked like she was trying to find her way back, we managed to transport her back downstairs in a paper tube 😂 and she went straight back to her babies. Phew.

Later, when she came out to have a run about, my daughter managed to spot at least 3 babies, one of which is fully black! ❤

and now i need a snooze 😴 exhausting business 😂

 

Another question - have gone and looked at some other cages, am going to need one at least - and i'm currently not comfortable with them being at the bottom of the big cage.

Would a deep tray hamster cage work? i could get this one, it's not far from me so could get it tomorrow - the size is 70x47x40cm. Pretty small, but maybe a better option than what i've got right now?

 

or this one - it's a guinea pig one, i'm sure i can remove the plastic inside thing, only thing is that the bars will be spaced wider, but i could still put the cardboard around it, not sure? i suspect it will be considerably larger...

 

hmm, not sure either is any good...

 

There are some videos on Youtube showing how good breeders arrange their birthing cages, for example:

Both of them use Alaska hamster cages or similar (which are 84cm by 49cm by 44cm high, and have large doors). I would say that the P@H Habitat 2 would be an OK size but the doors are very small which will be a nuisance. The other one looks to have quite large bar spacing so I think that would rule it out because once the babies are big enough to climb they might be able to squeeze out. I use a Savic Hamster Heaven as one of my introduction cages because it has a nice big front door and it is much the same size as an Alaska. (It has a silly little tunnel thing on top but that has never been a problem).

That said, I would be wary of moving them too soon as that may upset mum you don't want to do anything that might cause her to reject them. That is maybe unlikely as rats are usually such good mothers, but she is very young and a first time mother which are higher risk for that sort of problem. If you do move them I would wait a few days and then decant everything including all the substrate etc. in to the new cage so that it smells familiar. Again, someone with breeding experience would be able to give better advice than me.

 

Also, be sure to give her/them plenty of things to chew on. That is obviously important anyway, but any cage with a plastic base is capable of being chewed out of so having plenty of other things to chew is a must!

 

Good morning - thank you Ok, so all is quiet this morning and they are all asleep it seems, i'm a little less stressed about her being at the bottom of this cage for now. So maybe we'll secure the sides properly (let's hope the perspex fits!) and remove the other boxes out of it, there are still some more cardboard boxes in there...

I have a bunch of chew toys they like, so i can put them in there, wooden things and all sorts, i'll make sure they have lots... At least there is lots of room there, and she knows it and it smells familiar. I was a bit worried because her friends made such a racket and they run in that wheel a LOT (it's one of the huge wooden wheels, beautiful bit of home made craft i bought off etsy, cost me a fortune though...) and the wheel itself is quiet but they are not, it wobbles the bars (it would be fine if they just trotted but they don't, they zoom!! 🏎 But then i guess she will be used to that noise as well.

Don't want to upset her so... and there at least i have two very large doors as well (i was already wondering how on earth i'd move the cube).

I can worry about the other cages for when it's time to separate them I guess? I will read up some more on that, but i guess you don't just let the girls go in with the grownups, that scares me, the tiny babies with the grown up other ones, so i guess you just separate them into two separate cages.

I do hope it's more than 3, otherwise we might have a single one of one gender 😨 Should I advertise them on a Facebook group already? there is a 'rat rescue UK' page for example, they always seem to rehome them pretty quickly. I mean we know we have at least 3, but i've no clue what gender yet... But it feels we might want time to make sure they get good homes (feeling quite protective over our little worms! 😂)

 

Whilst mummy was having some cat food, I managed to sneak a photo from afar obviously, not wanting to upset mummy or babies... gosh they are tiny!! but yes, for now, don't think they can fall out, they are well surrounded by nesting and by the cube!

 

Oh, so exciting and beautiful!

In terms of cages, breeders who are having litters regularly will have multiple cages of different sizes whereas you will need to decide what is viable for you when you are only having one litter. However, the ideal arrangement would be to give mum and the babies a bigger cage at about 3 weeks as the babies will be very active by that point:

The kittens will wean by around 3.5 weeks but it is desirable that they stay with mum as long as possible as they will still take some of her nutritious milk for as long as she is producing it, and they will be learning about rat behaviour from her and that will help them to get on with adults when they are introduced to their forever homes.

The males should be separated at 5 weeks because from that point on they start to become capable of breeding. In practice most are usually few weeks older, especially for the does. Only very rarely will a doe reach sexual maturity earlier than that and be at risk of getting pregnant by a brother if he is also an early developer, but this is such a small risk that 5 weeks is pretty standard for separation. Bucks tend to mature slightly earlier than does and even if the litter is only bucks they still need to be separated from mum at 5 weeks as they may try to mate with her. Doe kittens can stay with mum, though she may be getting weary of them by this point so some breeders put the mother back with her adult friends at 6 or 7 weeks.

If the litter only has only one buck or one doe kitten then that is a problem because they need same-age company and whilst a doe can at least stay with her mum, a lone buck kitten will be exceptionally lonely and will not be learning important rat social skills. It is therefore desirable to sex the kittens as early as possible so that you can prepare for this in good time (e.g. get advice from breeders or maybe find someone who has a litter the same age that a lone buck could join).

Homing usually happens at around 8 weeks as from that point they can normally be introduced to other same-sex adults unless they are unusually small. As they need same-age company they should be homed in pairs (or larger groups) not singly, including any that you decide to keep yourself. It is best that they be homed fairly soon after 8 weeks because it is easier to introduce them to adults if they are under 12 weeks, so having suitable homes lined up in advance would be the ideal.

Therefore, assuming that the litter has a mix of males and females, you are likely to need three cages for the period from 5 weeks to 8+ weeks: (1) for the adults, (2) for the mother and female kittens and (3) for the male kittens. However if you are able to securely divide the main cage in two then you should only need one extra cage, and having something "Alaska sized" available is always handy as a hospital cage or for doing introductions so it is a good investment anyway.

 

Thank you Keith! So, I am going to need two further cages, because whilst i can secure the cage against mama getting back to her friends (although she did break through yesterday, we've re-secured the exit now - the gaps at the edges of the platforms will let the little ones through, so once they can climb enough they'll need another cage. And then - so long as there are bucks - i'll need one for them. So I guess I'll know more in 2 weeks on that front (as they will be identifyable by then? )

Right now, i can't even get the cardboard edging in, because the nest is backed onto a bit of cardboard, hard to explain, but trying to move it stressed mama - so for now, they will need to be as is. On a positive note, they can't fall out for the same reason because it's all wedged in very well...

And i did just see at least one more little one (different colour, hooded maybe? ) it is SO HARD to curb my curiosity 😅

they are VERY noisy and demanding btw - as soon as she moves, they complain a lot 😂 Can't help but feel a bit sorry for her - must be hard work that! She loves the paste.

A nice side effect of this drama, and having separated shreddie is that oreo and caramel have gotten closer, although they were having a minor argument earlier over the rest of the cat food tube 😂

Caramel is starting to look better. The coat around her eyes is regrowing, i wondered about that, and she generally looks just better...

 

ok, someone in the neighbouring village is selling this one. It's only 60cm wide, but looks like an option in case there are bucks - i realise it's not perfect, but for £15 probably worth having? they'll only live in there temporarily and i quite like the glass, i can fill that with substrate?

 

(sorry, i am spamming the forum 🤣 so many questions) - i realise the doors are also small, but maybe for the little ones that is ok - not meant for mama and babies. for bucks in case i have some once they need separating.

 

last post for now, promise, but managed to get a good photo of caramel from underneath (in case anyone is worried that we may still have a male in our mischief) - she's definitely a girl

 

I am sure that cage would do at a push, but it is rather small so if it turns out that the litter is large then its size may limit its usefulness. The bar spacing looks fine and the tank for substrate is good. The issue with the doors is more for your convenience, as even though it is just a temporary kitten cage they would be in it for a few weeks, so how would you change a litter tray for example? Also, you will want to get the kittens used to being handled and if you have to put your whole arm in through a small door and chase them around that is stressful, and will be more difficult if you have shelves/ropes etc. in it.

It's therefore not ideal, but it is available and the price is obviously good. On the other hand if the cage they are currently in is OK for them at the moment then you won't need the third cage for a while and in the meantime you have a little bit of time to find something that might be more suitable and/or useful to you in the longer term. The babies won't open their eyes until about 14 days and they only really start exploring at that point. I would suggest something with a larger floor area if possible, as that is always handy to have as a hospital cage.