Ratpax,
You know I was almost feeling a kinship with someone that has been bitten by about as many animals as I have and shares a monkey attack scar with me... I also got one of my worst infections from a cat bite and could add a few exotics to the list like African electric catfish... Although about the worst bite I've ever gotten was the humble mosquito that gave me West Nile Virus... I got the poison spider bite, (not black widow) but although I was very young, from what I recall I can promise you, you didn't miss much and my most memorable close call was when I held my friends lion fish while he removed the goldfish that was stuck in it's throat... My other close misses include rattlesnake and believe it or not, lion according to my mom, I was too young to recall either. Which might go towards my inherited parenting skills that allowed me to let my daughter play with wild rats... I've got to believe that just about everyone has been bitten by a dog, hamster, non-venomous snake and some kind of waterfowl, you do have a few winners on your list though I can't compete with. And I say that, in good faith doubt that anyone is likely to ever win a debate on how many animals they've been bitten by... Saner folks than us might actually argue that getting bitten by less critters might actually be better... On the other hand, if you haven't owned a piranha, risked a finger or two by squishing a camel, bull or a llama's nose or brought home a copperhead to show your mom, you really didn't have much of a childhood. ;D
Then you go and say something silly like actual empirical data suggests that immersion doesn't work. Immersion is based on three cornerstones... communication, emotional bonding and social status... These are the key components to all social animal's interaction.... easy to prove for yourself....
Stop talking to people, don't use traffic signals, unplug your phone and disconnect your internet, see how that works out for you... Communication is key to every human interaction and the health and happiness of every individual. And likewise happy rats communicate with their rat and human friends, we are both social animals.
As to emotional bonding, to be entirely honest some people might be able to live without emotional bonds with other people, but I can't think of any reason that I spent over a year changing diapers and am saving my hard earned money for my daughter's education if it weren't for an emotional bond with her. Without emotional bonds, I doubt humans could even tolerate each other. When you watch your rats snuggle together or when you interact with them, can you really tell me they don't have bonds with you or you with them?
As to social status... When your mom, teacher, boss, police officer or military commanding officer asks you to do something, try explaining that science has proven that their status has been scientifically debunked. Don't come home for curfew, refuse to take your final exams, tell your boss to go out and bring you a coffee and a sandwich, don't pull over or put your hands behind your head and tell your C.O that your going back to bed for a few more hours... Or if you are less brave just walk into a country club restaurant barefoot... and I promise you, you'll get a lesson on social status and if you still refuse to comply, you'll also most likely get a lesson on dominance behavior.
Whether you want to admit it or not, you know social status is important to rats. It governs almost every interaction between rats just like it governs every relationship between humans. There's a hierarchy of status in every group of rats, that's not to say that rats are abusive to each other, but some rats are always more equal than others and more likely to insist on being respected by their friends. It's normal and healthy and just the way social animals interact...
You and I can disagree all day on how your rats should perceive your status. I suggest that your rats should see you as a kind parent and in a slightly higher status leadership role. I think your rats are capable of respecting you without fearing you and you are welcome to disagree... And certainly you can discount the personal experience of all of the people that have happy mixed rat and human families through immersion, but to state that science has debunked communication, bonding and social status as critical elements of healthy socialization is bazaar.
I know you have or have had rats, I know you have bonded with them emotionally and they with you, I'm certain you understand them and their wants and needs and they understand you and your rules and I'm almost certain you don't let your rats run your household, bite you or push you around... Am I wrong? Every happy and successful rat owner or rat group or mixed human and rat family uses the cornerstones of immersion every day, and science, field experience of trained biologists and behaviorists has never proven or suggested otherwise.
Immersion can be explained without the terms alpha or dominance. In fact, for the most part it's based on communication and bonding, but lots of people just don't get how important their social role is in their mixed rat and human family and sometimes when people are being too passive or detached they need to step up and take charge... However you define alpha or dominance in your mind... they are only words and if it helps people understand what their rats need from them, they are as good as any... Immersion theory isn't a philosophy of domination it's a guideline to healthy socialization. Our rats free range the house most of their waking time or live completely free range, they feel free to come to me to ask for what they want or tell me what they don't want, they are independent, confident and competent. In fact they are true shoulder rats. I have never dominated them... ever, but I do set the rules they follow, lead them on expeditions and I don't get bitten when they are in a bratty mood. We share a strong emotional bond, we understand each other and dominance plays almost no role in our social structure. Yes, I'm the parent, but I exercise my role through loving and kind interaction and I'm respected for it. And by having that basic respect everyone's life is the better for it...
Immersion is successful because it works and no part of immersion has ever been dis-proven or debunked by science, field research or otherwise... And with thousands of loving humans sharing their lives with happy rats and documented proof that immersion has fixed screwed up rats and more immersed rats becoming competent shoulder rats than ever before... I'm going to say calling folks that have done immersion successfully cult members is rather rude.
People that do immersion want a better relationship with their rats, they don't want to dominate their furry friends, they are proud of their rat's accomplishments and they treasure their relationships with them. And I've very proud of how much work and time and effort and love the people I've worked with have invested in their achievements...
Dis-proven, debunked, cult.... seriously? How about spiteful, deprecating and intentionally insulting? I'm not sure that's what you intended, but for those of us who truly love our rats and are doing the best we can for them and trying to help each other have a better inter-species relationship with our furry family members feel like when we read comments like yours.
We honestly don't need to agree, but to my knowledge no one in the immersion camp has ever branded trust trainers, forced socializers, or operand conditioners as cult members... Immersion is built on a track record of success and happy rat owners and happy rats, we don't need to insult or offend anyone else or try and disprove anyone else's practices to promote our own... In fact, we don't need to promote or defend our own theories and practices at all... people try immersion because it make sense and see how well it works and never look back...
I'm sorry if I take this a little bit personal, but I'm proud of what we have accomplished to the betterment of the mixed rat and human community. Folks that don't use immersion have even benefited from some of our techniques or theories by incorporating them into their personal socialization styles... Feel free to promote your beliefs, but please don't use untruths, half-truths and insults to try and degrade people that don't believe as you do.
Adeliek,
I'm really sorry that your rat bite is getting worse, l got what they used to call "blood poisoning" from a cat bite and a wild parrot bite, it's really painful and your wound might need to be drained which is never a pleasant experience as it might involve reopening the wounds that finally stopped bleeding. Definitely, make sure to stay on your doctors and get it taken care of, whatever it takes. Any animal bite can turn into a serious problem if it isn't attended to promptly and aggressively. But on the up side, with appropriate treatment and always keeping my tetanus shots current, I've survived my fair share of animal bites, stings and shocks and I'm certain you will too... And you get another animal to add to your bite list... for better or worse.
That said, I'm sorry for derailing your thread with my response to misinformation and an irrelevant, unjustified and unwarranted personal attack on some of my best online friends...
Best luck and I hope you feel better soon.
