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I just have a few quick points.

-If you are a vet it is your responsibility to care for animals. If the vet did not want the responsibility they should have turned down the animals, sent them to a shelter or put them down. There is no justification for complete neglect.

-I believe there are flaws in the justice system, and I believe (from what I know about the story) that cinderella was caught up by them

-I FIRMLY support the issuing of permits to own animals, I see people everyday who have animals who have absolutely no idea how to care for them. That Savannah Monitor did NOT ask to be kept as a pet, the 4-5 ft adult should not be kept in a small pen on a limited diet (or released out of captivity) because the owners 'can't afford it' or are squeamish. I have problems with the government intervening in my life, for example they have no right to tell me who I can or can not marry. But for the animals sake? Something needs to be done as far as regulation. I am an animal lover, I am a scientist. Everyday I learn about ecological systems thrown out of whack by fragmentation and pollution. If humans can screw up the the habitat of other species they do have a responsibility to help that species, whether with government force or kindness of the heart. To say we have no responsibility to animals (domestic or wild) is ridiculous
 

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I said this in another post and I think it applies to what you said.

"The feeling of responsibility in keeping rats, is something that gives me pleasure. Their lives entirely depend on us, unlike other domesticated pets that can live in the wild, domesticated rats are OUR creation... Rats embody the human spirit of taming the wild and pushing back nature, contrasted with the endurance of their wild cousins, with the fragility of what we create for ourselves.

The question of whether there exists a "god" is all a matter of perspective. If one were able to ask one of our rats if there is a "god", they would point their little hands towards us."

I am not a christian, but I thought the word "god" suits us, considering we are playing the role of omnipotent caretaker, at least as far as out little rats are concerned.
 

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AND, morality is NOT subjective. Right is right. Wrong is wrong.
End of conversation.

It is WRONG to beat your child.
It is WRONG to kick your animal.
It is WRONG To punch your parents.

It IS THAT SIMPLE.
 

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Yashu,

Since laws are imperfect and arguably subjective, do you believe our society should have no regulations whatsoever regarding the treatment and care of (domestic) animals? You never really specified, and I’m truly curious about your POV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
First off, I had NO idea this thread was going to turn into such a debate, but I suppose it's good that people are being fairly mature in their discussions. Anyhow, to comment:

...who are we, being imperfect ourselves, to pass judgement on someone else that may be of another culture entirely with it's own subjective opinion?
I can see this in some cases, really I can. However, both of the cases I cited in the first post were not just Joe-Shmoe and his animal pals. These were people charged with the care of the rats in question by way of their job. They are people who are making money off of the animals in their care. Therefore, they should be 100% responsible for any abuses to the animals while they are in their facility. If I see someone spitting in the food at McDonald's, I'm not going to stop and think "Gee, maybe this is a part of their culture". I should expect you wouldn't either. Same thing goes if I see a mistreatment at a medical facility, which is what a vet's office essentially is. I think you might be upset if you saw someone sitting in a filthy hospital bed with food being thrown at them willy-nilly.

I am not one to push my morals on others, but I don't really think it's just the moral issue that you're making it out to be. If people are not held up to the codes and standards laid out by their workplace, they should expect to receive the full punishment. I would expect that at any job, and that is not a question of morality.
 

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I am going to reply to several people at once but not name who the replies go to since I have little time.

I feel that whatever we do today, will eventually be considered primitive, selfish, barbaric, immoral, and flawed at some point in the future.

I feel that all things are relative, and the only way to define much of what we are talking about is to use something as a reference point. The problem with this is that the reference point is, again, a moral opinion; something relative.

We do not have but a small understanding of life and how it works. We do not understand where consciousness comes from, nor do we understand when it begins, or in what lifeforms, and in what degree. I am an objectivist, but I am also someone that believes that we are the ones that need to take responsibility for what goes on in our native countries and not the government or the law. In the ideal world, law would be unnecessary, but we do not life in an ideal world, but that does not mean we should be punished in anyway by the actions of others; actions that are out of our control.

Laws are passed, many due to a few loud voices against something they deem immoral, but it is still founded on the opinions of man. Because of the few (abusers of any sort, but I use that word lightly since there is no clear definition), all of us are constrained by unnecessary law, war, on sometimes ridiculous things like words, plants, animals, consensual acts.

ANYTHING that we can do to stem the tide of yet more governmental control, anything, is worth, at least, trying over the status quo. Look around you and see what giving ultimate power to a few loud voices has done to my country and the world. I do think that humans are more important than other animals in the sense that it is only we that can consciously change the world around us, on the macro scale.

I am ask for people to consider going back to when problems were handled by us, and not some nanny state. I ask that you do not let the few bad apples spoil the bunch, as they say.

Remember, the more you report abuse, or stir the attention of those in power, the more they will take notice, and their "solution" may be worse than the problem itself.

This government (USA) has banned sequences of letters, plants, consensual acts between grown men and women, they have taken away our right to privacy, our right to protest, our right to be considered innocent until proven guilty, they have outlawed the display of parts of our own bodies and have dictated what, exactly, we may or may not do with our own flesh and blood! A vocal and powerful few have forced this way of living onto us without our consent. I never consented to any of it.

These are the people that you want to entrust the lives of the animals that you care so much for. You are the ones that care the most, therefore it makes sense to me that you be the ones to try and solve this problem, and not the state.

I have tried to be careful with my wording during this thread because I wanted to make clear that I was neither encouraging or condoning animal abuse. I feel like my opinion on THAT matter is not important, but for the record, I do feel empathy. Empathy is my moral barometer... I am only human.

Oh... and as far as age goes, you may just be talking to a grumpy old man here, and having an outlet for my opinions may be healthy for me... you never know.

;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Looks like this has gotten a bit side-tracked into what our government should and shouldn't be. I have a reply, but after this I think I'm done.

Unfortunately, what you are asking people to do isn't always going to work until there is a major change in the way government operates. As there are laws in place, there are a lot of situations where we cannot go in ourselves to try and fix things. Sometimes we have no choice but to be dependent, and we need to do the best we can with what we have. It may be a flawed system, but it's there. To change it is going to take time, but we can't just sit on our hands and wait when something is wrong.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong or right, and you're entitled to your opinion. I find it odd though, that you ask us not to push our morals on you. You seem to be pushing pretty hard with what you believe in as well. You may say it's your "opinions" and not "morals", but I think the idea is very much the same.
 

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Now I don’t like the government meddling in my affairs and telling me what to do anymore than the next person…but in the case of children and animals who can’t stand up for themselves I really don’t care if people’s toes get stepped on.

I’m all for having a rational discussion with someone when I see something ‘wrong,’ rather than calling in the authorities. But from my own experience people generally will only do as much as they are forced to do, no matter how well you word your issue.

It was not so long ago that there were no laws for the welfare of children and animals, and relying on the unofficial ‘everybody play nice’ rule obviously didn’t work.

As I posted before, I don’t think it is too much to expect people to provide basic care for their animals, who have no way to care for themselves, and if it takes government intervention to accomplish this, so be it.

Anyway, I’m with Macabri, this thread has gone way off topic. I think it’s gone just about as far as it’s going to go, but it was surely interesting.
 

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"I find it odd though, that you ask us not to push our morals on you."

I was sure to point out, sometimes many times, that what I was saying was this man's opinion... not what I consider "fact".

I find that through asking questions that we all can learn about each other. I like to ask questions and find out why things are one way over another. It helps me understand the world and the people around me. I know I am different, so I need that help.

I was thinking on my drive home, that it was ironic that we were having a philosophical discussion about rodents, when they are probably some of the mammals that we most closely resemble. They call dogs "man's best friend", but dogs, and the other domestic favorite, cats, are so very far from us, where rodents are so very close. Rats, in particular, have similar brain function, along with the hands/feet behavior, and emotions that we can feel sympathetic with. They have a full spectrum of auditory range that equals ours that is entirely outside our range of hearing... perhaps they having similar conversations about humans... you never know ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Just to clear one final thing up.

yashu said:
I was sure to point out, sometimes many times, that what I was saying was this man's opinion... not what I consider "fact".
And I noted that too if you noticed:

You seem to be pushing pretty hard with what you believe in as well. You may say it's your "opinions" and not "morals", but I think the idea is very much the same.
See, I was paying attention. :wink:

In any case, I think the topic is pretty much had its' last. Adieu fair post, it was fun while it lasted...kinda.
 

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I kindof enjoyed it myself. I like musing about philosophy. It is hard to find people that can come back with their own opinions. Not agreeing with me, it is not something I mind one bit. I am glad to see people form their own conclusions, or to be able to maturely enter a debate about a sensitive subject.

I read every word of what you guys wrote and understand your perspectives much better now. That, I think, is the most important thing, when we use our disagreements to learn about each other.
 
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