[RatsOwner]

I got 3 male rats about 5 months ago from a reputable breeder. I've had multiple female rats in the past never male rats. Around Christmas 1 of my rats, Wally, was making guinea pig noises so I immediately took him to the vet the next morning and they prescribed doxy and baytril for 24 days. At that point I was using fleece for the platforms and hemp bedding for the base at the bottom but Vet said to completely change to fleece. I did that and with the medicine he got completely better. Fast forward to 1 month and then another one, Remy, started making the guinea pig noises so again I took him to a different vet and he was prescribed baytril for 2 weeks. I expressed my concern and said I wanted to fully switch everything to hemp because fleece was too much maintenance cleaning every 3 days and was pretty bad for the odor. They didn't know what hemp was and advised to stick with fleece. I decided to switch anyways (not sure if I should have) A week later Wally was making the noises again and so he was on medication again.
My question is why are they getting sick so much. They aren't making any noises as of now but they sneeze constantly. Only 1 of the boys hasn't gotten sick and I don't think I hear him sneeze an abnormal amount yet. I know rats get sick easily but it seems like something on my part. I had set aside 900$ for emergency vet bills but it's flying fast and I'm a college student so I can't exactly be spending so much. There cage is located in my room where it's safer for me to keep an eye on them since there are cats in the household. I do have a low ceiling so is it my ceiling fan causing them to be sick? There cage is also in the corner of my room so is it not enough air flow? Is hemp bedding not good? I did use kiln dried pine pellets for like 2 weeks because my breeder uses that but they hated it and seem to worsen the sneezes. I also have an air purifier near the cage. Wondering if anyone has any idea why they keep sneezing and getting sick. Maybe im not cleaning well either? I'm just lost at what to do right now because it hurts my heart hearing them have sneezing fits.

 

[Cheesefather]

I got 3 male rats about 5 months ago from a reputable breeder. I've had multiple female rats in the past never male rats. Around Christmas 1 of my rats, Wally, was making guinea pig noises so I immediately took him to the vet the next morning and they prescribed doxy and baytril for 24 days. At that point I was using fleece for the platforms and hemp bedding for the base at the bottom but Vet said to completely change to fleece. I did that and with the medicine he got completely better. Fast forward to 1 month and then another one, Remy, started making the guinea pig noises so again I took him to a different vet and he was prescribed baytril for 2 weeks. I expressed my concern and said I wanted to fully switch everything to hemp because fleece was too much maintenance cleaning every 3 days and was pretty bad for the odor. They didn't know what hemp was and advised to stick with fleece. I decided to switch anyways (not sure if I should have) A week later Wally was making the noises again and so he was on medication again.
My question is why are they getting sick so much. They aren't making any noises as of now but they sneeze constantly. Only 1 of the boys hasn't gotten sick and I don't think I hear him sneeze an abnormal amount yet. I know rats get sick easily but it seems like something on my part. I had set aside 900$ for emergency vet bills but it's flying fast and I'm a college student so I can't exactly be spending so much. There cage is located in my room where it's safer for me to keep an eye on them since there are cats in the household. I do have a low ceiling so is it my ceiling fan causing them to be sick? There cage is also in the corner of my room so is it not enough air flow? Is hemp bedding not good? I did use kiln dried pine pellets for like 2 weeks because my breeder uses that but they hated it and seem to worsen the sneezes. I also have an air purifier near the cage. Wondering if anyone has any idea why they keep sneezing and getting sick. Maybe im not cleaning well either? I'm just lost at what to do right now because it hurts my heart hearing them have sneezing fits.

Your set-up sounds fine! And the vets are wrong about the fleece- unless it's in a hospital cage or you don't have access to anything else, fleece isn't a good option! Hemp is a very good bedding and should be changed once a week. For the sneezes, could you hold your rat's chest up to your hear and say if you hear any crackling noises? Sometimes sneezes can be environmental, like from smells (make sure to not burn incense or candles, smoke or vape, or use air fresheners or essential oils, even if they say they're pet safe). If the humidity is too low or too high (should be between 35-55% if I remember correctly) that could contribute too. Doxy and baytril are the usual meds prescribed for URIs, so I'm not sure why that isn't working. What breeder did you get them from? A lot of reputable breeders will give you advice or sometimes even have a return policy (not saying you should return them, but they should be able to help in some way). Let me know if you hear noises in their lungs! You're doing incredibly well as a rat owner <3

 

[-Lemon-]

Hemp bedding is good but maybe the type you are using is dusty or your rats are particularly sensitive. You could try a different type of bedding. I use aspen shavings with my rats and that works well. You could try a different type of hemp bedding or try getting rid of the dust. I think someone told me that you can use a thin mesh laundry basket or something like that to remove dust. You could always switch back to fleece if that worked well for your rats but it's stinky and a lot of work to change constantly as you mentioned. It also might be unrelated to the bedding as Cheesefather mentioned. I would also agree that you should definitely contact the breeder if you can! Good luck!

 

[Cheesefather]

Hemp bedding is good but maybe the type you are using is dusty or your rats are particularly sensitive. You could try a different type of bedding. I use aspen shavings with my rats and that works well. You could try a different type of hemp bedding or try getting rid of the dust. I think someone told me that you can use a thin mesh laundry basket or something like that to remove dust. You could always switch back to fleece if that worked well for your rats but it's stinky and a lot of work to change constantly as you mentioned. It also might be unrelated to the bedding as Cheesefather mentioned. I would also agree that you should definitely contact the breeder if you can! Good luck!

Yeah, I don't have much experience with hemp bedding but I know that bedding is different where they get it (usually hemp is sold in the UK, so they're probably in Europe). Agreed! Aspen is easy to find almost anywhere and pine works well too (kiln-dried).

 

[RatsOwner]

Your set-up sounds fine! And the vets are wrong about the fleece- unless it's in a hospital cage or you don't have access to anything else, fleece isn't a good option! Hemp is a very good bedding and should be changed once a week. For the sneezes, could you hold your rat's chest up to your hear and say if you hear any crackling noises? Sometimes sneezes can be environmental, like from smells (make sure to not burn incense or candles, smoke or vape, or use air fresheners or essential oils, even if they say they're pet safe). If the humidity is too low or too high (should be between 35-55% if I remember correctly) that could contribute too. Doxy and baytril are the usual meds prescribed for URIs, so I'm not sure why that isn't working. What breeder did you get them from? A lot of reputable breeders will give you advice or sometimes even have a return policy (not saying you should return them, but they should be able to help in some way). Let me know if you hear noises in their lungs! You're doing incredibly well as a rat owner <3

I don't think I hear anything when putting them up to my ear. All I hear is them sniffing my ear. I forgot to mention that, but yes, I do not use any scents in my room whatsoever, and the rare times I use perfume, I spray outside my room. I was thinking it may be the humidity since I'm from Florida, and humidity nowadays is around 80%, but it also feels dry in my room some mornings. So, is the humidity too high for them? Other than humidity, I had thought it was the ceiling fan since they are housed in a double critter nation cage, and so it's like 3/4 feet below the ceiling. I was considering downsizing to a single critter nation cage but didn't want to upset them for no reason. I will follow your advice and ask my breeder since she was a vet tech, if I remember correctly. Thank you for the reply!

 

[RatsOwner]

Hemp bedding is good but maybe the type you are using is dusty or your rats are particularly sensitive. You could try a different type of bedding. I use aspen shavings with my rats and that works well. You could try a different type of hemp bedding or try getting rid of the dust. I think someone told me that you can use a thin mesh laundry basket or something like that to remove dust. You could always switch back to fleece if that worked well for your rats but it's stinky and a lot of work to change constantly as you mentioned. It also might be unrelated to the bedding as Cheesefather mentioned. I would also agree that you should definitely contact the breeder if you can! Good luck!

The hemp bedding that I'm using seems to have little dust that I don't really notice it but I was thinking of trying a different hemp bedding to be on the safer side because ive heard good things about Aubiose hemp bedding but it's expensive in the US from what I see. I've used aspen shavings in the past with my old rats for a little bit and don't remember anything wrong with it so maybe I'll try that again too. Do you have a reccomended brand?

 

[CorbinDallasMyMan]

I think trying out different types of bedding is always a smart thing to do. Not all rats are the same so they may react differently to different beddings.

Rats can be a bit sensitive to change, though. Changing the type of bedding in their cage can cause them to be a little sneezy (like new home sneezes) so that's not always an indicator of whether or not a bedding is good or bad.

Also, if a rat isn't fully recovered from a respiratory infection either due to a weak antibiotic dose or a too-short course treatment, symptoms can reemerge. Some rats just have more sensitive lungs. The issues may or may not even be related to your bedding choices.

 

[Tinytoes]

The sounds you are hearing are most likely in the sinuses if you aren't hearing anything in their lungs. Low humidity, ammonia, dust, all contribute to respiratory issues. Through the process of elimination, you can rule out environmental contributors.

My 8 foster baby girls came with sneezes and giggles. Twice I gave them a round of doxy (14 days) but still intermittent sneezes and giggles. We even took a batch to the vet, and she said no URI. Clear eyes and nose, nothing in the chest, healthy happy girls. I have come to the conclusion that they are just sensitive, and not actually sick with a URI. I still hear someone giggling when they eat wet food, but it's so random I can't tell who it is, it's not consistent.

I use fleece, but also a big litter box which they use. I swap out the fleece every couple of days. Doing rat laundry is a regular thing for me lol. I also removed their dig box thinking they might be inhaling particles, and that did help. Clean cages are crucial to good respiratory health.

 

[Cheesefather]

I don't think I hear anything when putting them up to my ear. All I hear is them sniffing my ear. I forgot to mention that, but yes, I do not use any scents in my room whatsoever, and the rare times I use perfume, I spray outside my room. I was thinking it may be the humidity since I'm from Florida, and humidity nowadays is around 80%, but it also feels dry in my room some mornings. So, is the humidity too high for them? Other than humidity, I had thought it was the ceiling fan since they are housed in a double critter nation cage, and so it's like 3/4 feet below the ceiling. I was considering downsizing to a single critter nation cage but didn't want to upset them for no reason. I will follow your advice and ask my breeder since she was a vet tech, if I remember correctly. Thank you for the reply!

Of course! Yeah, hemp bedding would be best and keep following what the vets say as well! You can get a cheap hygrometer from amazon and also get a dehumidifier if it's 80% in the house. That could definitely be making them sneeze more!

 

[PeekaBoo]

@RatsOwner Hemp is great, but fleece is fine too — I know there are folks who are vehemently anti-fleece (and anti-paper), but there is no data to back up the claims. Proponents of fleece cite its lack of dust and its washability as positives. As long as fleece is kept clean (i.e. no noticeable odor, spot-cleaned for droppings at least once a day) there is nothing inherently inferior about it. Thicker fleece pads with U-Haul blanket fabric are especially helpful, as they wick away fluids and keep the surface drier. It also helps to use a laundry detergent that is dye free/perfume free, and if you can run the fleece on a final rinse with a cup of white vinegar (which helps further remove odor). The most important factor with any bedding is to change it before it “needs” to be changed (before it gets smelly), but that time frame will vary depending on how many rats you have, what size space they are in and whether they are male or female.

With respiratory issues, many times it has little to do with environment and more to do with a rat’s genetics/immune system response. Of course changes in a rat’s environment can lead to stress, which can bring on a bit of “sniffles,” but some rats are just more prone to respiratory infection than others.

You say the rats are from the same breeder. Depending on their genetic makeup, there is also a chance that what sounds like sniffles is actually related to the heart. Rats with heart problems often present as wheezy, and it is difficult for a vet to tell the difference between the typical respiratory infection and congestive heart failure or enlarged heart. I’ve had several rats initially diagnosed with respiratory infection who did not clear up properly on antibiotics, at which point I’ve learned to have their hearts checked. This involves imaging (which can be expensive), but if your vet agrees you can also try Lasix or something similar and see if the symptoms improve. It won’t hurt the rat, and if the rat shows improvement, it indicates that the rat is indeed dealing with heart disease, which can then be properly treated. It’s best to learn if the heart is involved earlier rather than later, so treatment can begin and lead to longer life and better outcomes.

Good luck with your boys!

 

[Cheesefather]

@RatsOwner Hemp is great, but fleece is fine too — I know there are folks who are vehemently anti-fleece (and anti-paper), but there is no data to back up the claims. Proponents of fleece cite its lack of dust and its washability as positives. As long as fleece is kept clean (i.e. no noticeable odor, spot-cleaned for droppings at least once a day) there is nothing inherently inferior about it. Thicker fleece pads with U-Haul blanket fabric are especially helpful, as they wick away fluids and keep the surface drier. It also helps to use a laundry detergent that is dye free/perfume free, and if you can run the fleece on a final rinse with a cup of white vinegar (which helps further remove odor). The most important factor with any bedding is to change it before it “needs” to be changed (before it gets smelly), but that time frame will vary depending on how many rats you have, what size space they are in and whether they are male or female.

With respiratory issues, many times it has little to do with environment and more to do with a rat’s genetics/immune system response. Of course changes in a rat’s environment can lead to stress, which can bring on a bit of “sniffles,” but some rats are just more prone to respiratory infection than others.

You say the rats are from the same breeder. Depending on their genetic makeup, there is also a chance that what sounds like sniffles is actually related to the heart. Rats with heart problems often present as wheezy, and it is difficult for a vet to tell the difference between the typical respiratory infection and congestive heart failure or enlarged heart. I’ve had several rats initially diagnosed with respiratory infection who did not clear up properly on antibiotics, at which point I’ve learned to have their hearts checked. This involves imaging (which can be expensive), but if your vet agrees you can also try Lasix or something similar and see if the symptoms improve. It won’t hurt the rat, and if the rat shows improvement, it indicates that the rat is indeed dealing with heart disease, which can then be properly treated. It’s best to learn if the heart is involved earlier rather than later, so treatment can begin and lead to longer life and better outcomes.

Good luck with your boys!

Please stop giving advice on this. You are absolutely not qualified and have no studies to back up your claims that paper bedding is good and can be changed "whenever it gets dirty." On the other hand, there are many studies showing how paper bedding is not an acceptable bedding at all. Here's one that shows the levels of ammonia in paper bedding compared to other beddings. 2004 July Ref. Section.pmd (afrma.org)

"The mean ammonia concentrations in static cages housing mice on CareFRESH Ultra bedding were significantly higher than the means for all the other bedding treatments (Table 2). Unexpectedly, the ammonia concentrations in cages housing mice on CareFRESH Ultra bedding were very high at 2 weeks (65.4 to 390.2 ppm), so we removed that group from the study."
They didn't even include one type of carefresh because it did so badly in the study. Carefresh is also not tested on animals. Please stop giving out false information. Thanks! 💕

 

[-Lemon-]

Wouldn't it be fine if you changed it more often?

 

[Cheesefather]

Wouldn't it be fine if you changed it more often?

No, since that makes the rats mark more, and also because of the dangers of paper bedding scarring their lungs. Plus, why would you want to? You would have to change it every 2-3 days and that stuff is expensive.

 

[PeekaBoo]

@Cheesefather Again, that is specifically fr CareFresh Ultra, which is not even described by the manufacturer as “paper bedding” but instead is ”100% reclaimed natural fiber,” more specifically “sustainable product made from reclaimed cellulose paper fiber obtained directly from partnerships with tissue and paper manufacturers,” which they’ve patented called “comfyfluff.” That is not “paper bedding“ — it’s the parts of the wood that don’t even make it into paper or tissue. It’s also considered an inferior product when it comes to “paper” bedding (just as some brands of aspen bedding are considered inferior due to dust and contaminants).

And again as I mentioned before about this study when going methodically over the study links you sent: 3rd study uses mice in cages without ventilation, and specifically “Carefresh” paper bedding vs. many others (including recycled newspaper). While the Carefresh results suck, the recycled newspaper actuallyy DID BETTER than the pine shavings. Aspen is not mentioned among the woods used, Maple, Beech and Poplar did better, but I’ve not seen them regularly sold as rodent bedding.

So yes, there is no THERE there. But thanks again for trying to make something out of nothing, it has been endlessly fascinating…

 

[PeekaBoo]

@Cheesefather And I’m still waiting for the science on how wood ”breaks down” ammonia (though you seemed to have backed down from that claim)…

 

[Cheesefather]

@Cheesefather And I’m still waiting for the science on how wood ”breaks down” ammonia (though you seemed to have backed down from that claim)…

Ah yes, you don't know about natural fibers. Please do some research first 💕

 

[Clueeee]

@Cheesefather And I’m still waiting for the science on how wood ”breaks down” ammonia (though you seemed to have backed down from that claim)…

Do you have any studies on the opposing argument? I've only seen studies that are for what Cheesefather is saying. I can't find any studies for carefresh being good and pine bad but maybe I suck at google

 

[PeekaBoo]

@Clueeee I never said anything about “Carefresh” being good, please refer to my post above, it’s not even qualified as “paper bedding,” but instead uses the remains left over from the manufacture of paper.

For links to paper being fine for ammonia (at least as compared to aspen bedding) see this study (scroll down to p.73, the paper beddings are “Alpha-Dri” and “Omega-Dri,”), and this study (scroll down to p. 365, first paragraph). There are not a lot of studies that deal specifically with this issue, these were the two I could find that satisfied the parameters of our debate, which dealt with whether good quality paper bedding is a safe substrate for rats.

 

[PeekaBoo]

Ah yes, you don't know about natural fibers. Please do some research first 💕

@Cheesefather Again, your response is not to actually show any data but to claim the other person is ignorant. It’s not the best strategy (and the passive-aggressive hearts at the end are a nice touch). If we are to talk about “natural fibers,” you’re dealing with not only wood fibers but cotton, wool, hair, silk… Do all these things ”break down ammonia”? Because I really don’t have any idea what that statement is trying to say, other than you don’t have an actual scientific basis for your assertions. I did address this notion in our previous discussion (verified with an ex who is an organic chemist), to wit: no bedding can “break down” ammonia — the breakdown of ammonia is an endothermic reaction that requires energy input such as heat, and a catalyst. All any bedding can do is absorb the urine and keep the rats drier, which some do better than others.

 

[Clueeee]

@Clueeee I never said anything about “Carefresh” being good, please refer to my post above, it’s not even qualified as “paper bedding,” but instead uses the remains left over from the manufacture of paper.

For links to paper being fine for ammonia (at least as compared to aspen bedding) see this study (scroll down to p.73, the paper beddings are “Alpha-Dri” and “Omega-Dri,”), and this study (scroll down to p. 365, first paragraph). There are not a lot of studies that deal specifically with this issue, these were the two I could find that satisfied the parameters of our debate, which dealt with whether good quality paper bedding is a safe substrate for rats.

I can't find much info on Omega-Dri, could you find some info on it? and, paper bedding is fine in the form of Alpha Dri. However, it's not available to pet owners easily, and paper bedding is 99% of the time going to be associated with carefresh/carefresh-like beddings. So it's not really practical or realistic to say "paper bedding" is fine without specifications, especially when what is commercially available(what people will most likely get) is drastically different to what was used in the study.