Your opinions?

Im coming into this thread a bit late, sorry for bringing up things that were a few pages back.

I just wanted to point out a few red flags that I noticed about HGLR. Breeding a female that was 2 months old (PCKG Madison) whom died a little over 6 months old. Bred two of the offspring from this particular litter (HGLR Mitchell and HGLR Phoebe)

PCKG Daphne also bred at 2 months of age.

registering offspring from a rescue rat from a shelter..... plans on breeding it??????

Incorrect color/marking names.

unknown pedigrees, breeding rats from pet stores.

Finding a good breeder can be difficult but there are always signs that are right there to see, you just have to know how to find them. Do not be afraid to ask questions, ask for dates, ask for times, ask for pictures, ask for records. If a breeder is not willing to give you that information..... find another. Every breeder should have a goal as to why they are breeding a particular litter. Ask about those goals. You can easily tell when a breeder is just breeding because Sally is soooo cute and Bob has dumbo ears to a breeder that actually is working for the betterment of rats.

A breeder can not improve health nor temperament in their lines if they purposely breed pet store rats or rats with known health issues. There is a lot more to it then just having a cute little website with a registered prefix for your rattery to slap on the front of rat names.

Keep in mind, we all have to start somewhere. Some of the best rats came from petstores in the beginning (Can we say Russian Blue?). A good breeder is one that may make a mistake, but doesn't make that mistake again. A good breeder is passionate and wants to know how the rats are doing. A good breeder may sound a little mean at first (or ask a lot of questions), but will be kind in time. That's my advice.

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I would like to expand on this a little. There are several different varities that have come from pet store rats. For example the Satin coat, which is still under some debate. Were it not for a breeder who found a Satin coat in a petstore, and that breeder working to improve and reproduce that coat type, we wouldn't see it very much in the rat community. It may very well have died out right there.

There are limits to breeding pet store rats. It should be done only by experienced breeders or those under the tutelage of experienced breeders, in which the mentor has full reign over the continuation or the end of that line.

I used to believe that no pet store rat should ever be bred, however I have come to believe somewhat differently. While it has it's dangers, it does have it's benefits as well. Were breeders only to work with well known, proven lines, then eventually there would be no outcrosses to infuse new blood into a line. All ratteries would be working together yes, a wonderful prospect that is, however that too has its limitations. Inbreeding it not so harmful to rats as a species and can in fact be beneficial, but after a while it could become a problem. Not to mention, if all rats were related, health problems could become even stronger and more previlent.

I know one breeder, whom I will not disclose without permission, that obtained rats from a rattery with well known lines. She introduced those lines to hers as an outcross. She soon began to have aggression issues and nearly had to discontinue the line entirely. According to her, it was her selective breeding with pet store rats that got her line back on track. Provided she knows the owner of the pet store and payed close attention to their general health and temperament.

I've run a rescue for a while now and I've seen the good and the bad of purposeful breedings of rats from unknown heritage. But with the guiding hand of a mentor who knows what they are doing, it can be done well. However it is a very slow going process.

You have to be dedicated and ready for to end the line if serious problems (such as MG, Zucker, heart failure, etc) occur. You must be willing to start all over again if the line proves to be lacking. I know of several well known ratteries who began with unknown lineage and from all of their hard work, they have produced some of the most wonderfully mannered, beautiful and healthy rats I have ever seen. And you cannot keep introducing unknown genetics as it accomplishes nothing. But if you work closely with one family of rats, from that you can begin a wonderful line new to the rat community. But it takes generations of very selective breeding

MopyDream44 said:

I just wanted to add that I don't think anyone should breed......professional, responsible, or amature if there is a local rescue or shelter that has ratties waiting to be adopted.

People won't adopt from a rescue when they can get a "cute" or "cool" marking from a breeder, and that leaves many animals without a proper home!

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Rescue rats definitely need to be placed, but at the same time, it can be tricky to say that there should be no breeders if rescue rats need homes. Honestly, with pet stores and backyard breeders producing rats like there's no tomorrow, there will ALWAYS be rescue rats looking for homes. To say no breeder should produce more rats until all the rescue rats has homes, is saying that we only want "pet store quality" rats available for pets. Rats don't live very long. Their reproductive lives are even shorter. All the "breeding quality" rats will be retired LONG before all the rescue rats are placed.

It also needs to be considered that most responsible breeders are not producing litters all the time. Most only produce one or two litters every several months, maybe even only a couple litters in a whole YEAR. These same breeders also encourage people to adopt rats from rescues, many of them also donate to rescues. These responsible breeders also take the time to make sure their rats are going to good homes, and WILL take the babies back if that home can't keep them for life. This ensures those rats are NOT going into shelters, and contributing to the problem. These breeders also take the time and effort to educate people, encouraging people NOT to breed rats willy nilly, NOT to support backyard breeders or pet stores, and NOT to just look at rats like a throw-away toy. These breeders are by far not competing with rescues, but actually HELPING the cause.

Personally, I have actually encouraged people to adopt from rescues, EVEN when I had babies available to place. I have helped connect people to rescues to find new babies. I have also only produced a grand total of six litters this entire calendar year, a total of 51 rats that were placed (12 babies, two from each litter, were kept in my rattery), an average of 4.25 babies per month, or 0.14 rats per day were produced in my rattery over this entire year. These numbers are insignificant compared to the numbers produced by pet stores, where the majority of rescue rats ultimately come from.

To the original poster:

If you are considering breeding in the future, the first step is a responsible, reputable, experienced breeder whose goals, ambitions, and ethics are similar to yours. Yes, you have much to learn, and you will continue to learn, but there are some things you can start considering and establishing now.

First, why do you want to breed rats, what are your goals? Just to produce cute, fuzzy pets? To produce show winners? To improve the health and temperament of our beloved pets?

What are your ethics, as a breeder? How do you feel about culling (as in, killing off the "undesired" babies)? How will you place your babies? What if a rat, young or old, is sick or injured and can't be treated or cured? How do you view euthanasia of a sick/injured rat compared to culling?

What are you looking for in a breeder? Are there particular varieties you prefer, or do you care?

Start looking for breeders, and contact all of them. Everything you read should be taken with a grain of salt. Talk to the breeders first, but be cautious. Ask them what their goals are, how they choose their breeders, how they select their keepers from each litter, what they look for when deciding on a pair, how they keep track of their babies, how they track and record their lines, what kind of records they keep, how far back their records go, how long they keep those records, who they work with, and so on. If you see "red flags", ASK the breeder. If you see that a breeder bred a rat at two months of age, ask them WHY. Maybe that breeder was new and didn't know any better, but now they've learned. Maybe that breeder just doesn't care and thinks it's perfectly acceptable to breed a rat at two months of age. Maybe that particular litter was an accident (and though accidents should not happen, sometimes they do, find out how many accidents, how often, and what the circumstances were; was the breeder just careless, or was the breeder in the hospital and the rats' caretaker slipped up?). If a breeder has "weird" names for colors, ASK the breeder about those colors. Not every possible color is standardized. Russian blue Burmese is not standardized, but it IS a color. Wheaten Burmese is not yet standardized, but it IS a color. Not ever color is standardized in every club. "Blue beige" is a standardized color in AFRMA, but not in other clubs. "Havanna" is a standardized color in other clubs, but not in AFRMA. If you see a color you are not familiar with, ask the breeder what it is, where it came from, the suspected genetics, and then go out and do research to find out whether or not that color actually is standardized and is just being given a "cutesy" name.

When looking for a mentor, be careful. Look for someone you agree with, but also someone who knows what they are doing. If the breeder says they do "this" find out why. If a breeder waits until six months to breed their rats, find out WHY. If the breeder bred a litter, and then didn't keep any babies, find out WHY. If a breeder's rats "disappear", find out WHERE those rats are going. Some breeders pet-place their retired breeders. Other breeders cull them. Some breeders raise ALL of the babies born, other breeders cull half the litter. Some breeders keep records on every stinking little thing that happens to their rats. Other breeders couldn't care less. Find out which breeders are which. Talk to multiple breeders, don't just talk to one and follow that person like they are the know all, be all. Once you have gotten to know different breeders, make your judgment and then pick your mentor, or even your mentors.

And any breeder worth their salt should be willing to at least talk to you. Many breeders out there won't do that. That doesn't mean the breeder has to tell you everything and anything there is to know about breeding, but they should at least be willing to talk to you, and explain to WHY. Even as someone who is just looking for a pet, the breeder should be able to tell you WHY they paired such and such rats.

It's a tricky road to walk. There is so much back-stabbing, so much gossip, so many rumors. So many people come into breeding, just to drop out in a couple years. With so many people coming and going, it's hard to know who is who, even harder to find one who is worth working with.

I have several 'retirement' homes for my retired breeders. These people are in constant contact with me and know that they have to stay in touch with me in order to have the rats. Not all of my retired rats leave here, some are very bonded to me and me to them so they stay to be PR rats or just to help 'nanny' the younger rats.
I tend to keep many babies much longer than the usual 6-8 weeks to evaluate them. I will often keep more than half the litter til 4-5 months or so because one cannot always tell how the rats are going to mature. If you only keep 1 or 2 babies, how can you really be sure you are choosing the right rats to continue a line? Those rats could change alot as they mature. By keeping more rats longer, you have more of an idea of who will be the best to breed from. Not everyone can do this though due to space constraints or lack of adopters willing to take older rats. Thankfully through the years I've built up quite a network of people who actually prefer to take the older rats. Yes, it does mean extra food and care of more rats, but in the long run, it is worth it because you have a better group of rats to choose from and can make better choices.

deercreekrattery said:

I tend to keep many babies much longer than the usual 6-8 weeks to evaluate them. I will often keep more than half the litter til 4-5 months or so because one cannot always tell how the rats are going to mature. If you only keep 1 or 2 babies, how can you really be sure you are choosing the right rats to continue a line? Those rats could change alot as they mature.

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Yes, the rats will change a lot, and that's why we, as breeders, need to be selective. However, I think expecting every breeder to keep every baby until they are four or five months old is a bit extreme. Just because a breeder keeps two or three babies from a litter, does not mean that breeder WILL breed those babies. If one doesn't turn out as hoped, the breeder still has the second. It is harder for new breeders to pick babies, but with experience one can learn what to look for. A breeder should also look at the other rats in the line, and what those rats have produced. If a line has consistently produced long heads, the breeder knows to pay close attention to that trait in the babies. If a line has consistently produced big-boned, large rat, the breeder can, for the most part, feel comfortable that's what will be produced when two big-boned, large rats are paired. Things WILL change, but trends will also be obvious.

Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep.

By keeping more rats longer, you have more of an idea of who will be the best to breed from. Not everyone can do this though due to space constraints or lack of adopters willing to take older rats. Thankfully through the years I've built up quite a network of people who actually prefer to take the older rats. Yes, it does mean extra food and care of more rats, but in the long run, it is worth it because you have a better group of rats to choose from and can make better choices.

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This is the key. Not everyone can afford to keep fifty rats (just from litters) at a time, due to time and space constraints. Not everyone has a network of people who want to adopt older rats either. There are quite a number of people who contact me who want babies. By "baby", they mean a rat that's freshly weaned, even the six to eight weeks old I adopt out are "too old" for them. Those people don't even have the opportunity to adopt my babies (there are plenty of other people who are willing to wait just a little bit longer). BUT, with the number of other breeders in my neck of the woods (off the top of my head, I can think of AT LEAST twenty or thirty people who are breeding rats, not including pet stores, and no, not all of those people are responsible, reputable, ethical, or knowledgeable breeders), and the number of pet stores, and the popularity of Craigslist as a way to "get rid" of unwanted rats because people thought it would be "fun" and "cute" to put their boy and girl together and see what happens, and the number of people in this general area (California is a BIG state, and a very populous state on top of that), I highly doubt there will ever be a major conversion towards rats they will only have for eighteen months before they die. There are too many people who don't know what they are doing to make that a possibility. Too many people who separate the babies from their mother at three and four weeks of age, as opposed to waiting closer to five weeks, let alone waiting until six to eight weeks before adopting them out. That doesn't mean a breeder shouldn't push for education, that's not what I mean at all. BUT it does make the process slower, and harder. I won't adopt to those people who don't want to wait, who don't take my adoption policies seriously, or who are caught lying to my face about who they are and what they intend for my babies. But that doesn't mean there aren't other people out there who will, and will feed and encourage that attitude.

It's a tough road being a breeder and trying to improve on your rats. It's even tougher when the general society you live in doesn't view pets as living creatures that require care for life, but more as luxury items that need to be thrown away when they are no longer "in". It's even tougher still when within the breeder community at large there are so many different "ideals". This camp of breeders says it's ok to adopt rats out at four and five weeks of age, but this other camp says it's better to wait until six to eight weeks of age, yet another camp says everyone should keep their rats until they are five and six months of age. This group of breeders says culling is never acceptable under any circumstances (keeping in mind that culling is NOT the same as euthanasia of a sick or injured rat), yet this other groups states a responsible breeder HAS to cull their litters down to no more than six babies or else they'll starve to death and never win in shows (placing 25cent ribbons in higher regard than the rats themselves). And in the mean time you are floundering just trying to keep your head above the flurry of it all.

In the end, WHAT is the breeder breeding for? HOW are they breeding? Are they selecting their rats and choosing their pairs for the good and betterment of the rats? (No matter how long improvement might take.) Or are they selecting their rats for their own ends, at the expense of the rats? (Culling litters down to less than half so the babies grow big and will win in shows, making themselves look better because hey! they have show winning rats.) In the end that's what is going to matter most.

Sorraia said:

Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep.

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Personally, I don't breed to satisfy adopters. I breed for me and the betterment of the rats as a whole. If I had it my way, I would not deal with adopters at all, but since culling is not an option, I adopt out the rats that are not breeding quality. Adopters, even if highly screened, are NOT 100% reliable and not all keep in constant touch with the breeders of their rats. I've been breeding nearly 11 years now and have plenty of experience to back me up on that. It may sound harsh to some, but adopters are not even considered when I breed a litter. I dont' breed for ribbons, but I do breed to improve their conformation, health, genetics and temperment. Those things are #1 in my book. Adopter happiness is not. Granted, I dont' want unhappy adopters, but the way I look at it, if I'm doing my job by breeding quality rats in general, I should not have to focus specifically on pleasing adopters. If an adopter cannot accept the fact that I'm keeping rats longer, then they are not adopted to. If you have high quality animals, good adopters won't care if the rats are a little older when they become available. I know that this method isn't good for everyone but it works very well for me and my adopters.

deercreekrattery said:

Sorraia said:

Another thing to consider, rats usually only live two to three years. Is it fair to the adopters to keep the rat for almost half of its already short life span before placing the babies? Yes, these are OUR (the breeders) rats first, but we are also focusing on PETS first. Quite frankly, I would prefer to produce beautiful, healthy (which I can determine by keeping in touch with my adopters, which I require of EVERY single one of them, including those who are JUST getting pets), friendly pets and improve the type and color over a longer period of time, than to get winners of 25cent ribbons in two generations. I would rather my adopters are happy with the pet they adopted that will be with them for two years, rather than to give them a rat they will only have for a year because I kept it for the other half of its life time because I couldn't make up my mind about who I wanted to keep.

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Personally, I don't breed to satisfy adopters. I breed for me and the betterment of the rats as a whole. If I had it my way, I would not deal with adopters at all, but since culling is not an option, I adopt out the rats that are not breeding quality. Adopters, even if highly screened, are NOT 100% reliable and not all keep in constant touch with the breeders of their rats. I've been breeding nearly 11 years now and have plenty of experience to back me up on that. It may sound harsh to some, but adopters are not even considered when I breed a litter. I dont' breed for ribbons, but I do breed to improve their conformation, health, genetics and temperment. Those things are #1 in my book. Adopter happiness is not. Granted, I dont' want unhappy adopters, but the way I look at it, if I'm doing my job by breeding quality rats in general, I should not have to focus specifically on pleasing adopters. If an adopter cannot accept the fact that I'm keeping rats longer, then they are not adopted to. If you have high quality animals, good adopters won't care if the rats are a little older when they become available. I know that this method isn't good for everyone but it works very well for me and my adopters.

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Breeding for the betterment of rats as a whole should be a priority. That is what all breeders should be doing. We should be breeding for better health, better temperament, better longevity, better conformation and to produce all-around better rats. Yet, how does one judge whether a rat is better or not.
Shows can tell you if your rats type has improved. Though maybe they can't really judge an improvement on temperament or health.
We can judge by looking at how long they live, how healthy they are.
I think the best judge of our rats is the person who comes back in three or four years to say that their rats have passed and they want to adopt more. Or those people who refer you to another person looking for a pet.
I think it is essential that we accept that in order to be a rat breeder, we need people to adopt our babies/youngsters. Sometimes this requires one to try to include adopters needs into the picture.
If I have a girl to breed who carries dumbo, for example, and two perfectly equal males to choose from. Why shouldn't I choose the male that carries dumbo and may produce a range of colors in the babies.
I am breeding to improve the rat, but I am also breeding to make sure each rat finds a suitable home.
It isn't easy to find homes for a litter of 16 black standard eared babies. So the choice (when given equality in type) would be for me to choose to produce a litter of 16 dumbo and standard eared, black, Russian Blue and Siamese babies.
I will not cull healthy rats. I don't see or understand the point of killing off innocent lives. How do you know anything about your lines anyways when you kill off half of them? It doesn't make sense.
I agree with Sorraia that the Adopter does matter. As well, Deer Creek makes a point when it comes to Adopters who don't keep in contact.