Why do you think a neuter will help Athos? While it would make him less of a target, Badger will still need to assert dominance. It really wouldn't help any personality traits nor do I think it would necessarily boost confidence. That's just my opinion, though.

 

My thoughts for neutering Athos would be that it'd kill the "fight or flight" urge within him. He's not strong enough to be an alpha rat, but his hormones are giving him the tools for it to be possible (if that makes sense). So all he's doing is "flight"ing constantly. My theory is, with a neuter, he won't have this fight or flight mentality, and Badger will be able to flip him and dominate him as he pleases, meaning he won't spend all his time trying to, and will be less frustrated by the fact that he can't.

If it's not already horribly obvious, I've never had a rat neuter before, so this really is all theory, but I really don't want to neuter the wrong rat. I can't neuter Badger because of bad health, and Athos is becoming a problem because he's on edge all of the time.

Ideally, I'd like these "reintroductions" to work, but I don't know if I'm supposed to keep them in the small cage for a full 24 hours or something or not? When I get up in the mornings, I feel terrible because they're all climbing up the sides of the cage to get to me for me to let them out. They don't like it in there so I don't like keeping them in there, but I'd do it temporarily if it's what I need to do.


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It also occurs to me that I may be using the word "reintroduction" incorrectly, as I've never separated them, due to the fact that there's never been any blood and they all eat and sleep together seemingly happily. I can't stand the idea of Badger being alone for an extended period of time because he's not that kind of rat (in my opinion).

I guess it's "forced interaction"??


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I think if you are using Isamurat's theory of introductions you leave them in until things are resolved. They clearly aren't resolved when the rats are back on home ground.

Fight or flight is a natural response that healthy-minded animals have. A neuter probably really wouldn't help him with it. My male is neutered and has remained alpha, and will protect his cage against "invaders" (my dog, his sons) and also holds everyone in the cage in line with a firm hand. The younger ones have hit puberty so have been vying for the top rat spot, but he wrestles and wins. Long story short, I think he has remained entirely the same. The only thing neuters can really do is curb aggression brought on by hormones or sterilise them.

Even with Badger's chronic illness, if you determine that they are the product of scarring and not of actual illness then he should be a fine candidate for surgery. He probably would benefit from it more as he seems to have an excess of boyness (while perhaps Athos may have less...)

 

My other source of rat info seems to think it's scarring because I keep calling it squeaking as opposed to wheezing or snuffling (because I think it does sound more squeaky than anything else), but we'll see...apparently I'm still on the hunt for a decent vet, as the four week course of three different meds was apparently not too much of a good idea...but that's another story entirely.

During my random googling, I came across the story of someone who "neutered the wrong rat". She neutered the aggressor when she should have neutered the provoker. Therefore, the cage dynamics didn't actually get any better at all. This is why I'm posting so much about neuters and trying to weigh up the possibilities for and against both. (I guess I should just get them both done and call it a day...)

Anyway, how do you think I can tell when the issues have been resolved? As far as I can see in the morning, things are great. Badger is pinning both Athos and Thaddius and they're not fighting back or squeaking in protest or anything. Then Badger backs off and they go about their ratty business. It genuinely looks like they're fixed by the morning! Then they spend all day sleeping because they didn't get any sleep over night in the uncomfortable small cage (though I did catch them napping last night...all cuddled together, very cute, but again, confusing behaviour for me).

I guess I'll keep them all in the small cage again for the night and all of tomorrow. My boyfriend has the day off work so he can assess the situation regularly. It all feels a bit bad on Thaddius though, who is actually the perfect rat and hasn't done anything wrong


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Just being a baby doesn't make you the provoker. For example, I recently was punishing the "aggressor" without noticing the "provoker". For weeks Remus was getting bopped, yelled at, and pinned because he was acting a bit aggressive. I think I posted on here wondering why my male was being aggressive to his daughters. Well, it turned out that it was the same baby each time that he were fighting with. She was essentially picking on him (tugging his fur, stealing his treats, biting at him, etc) and causing him to be a butthead. So, I'd have to know a bit more about what they meant with the provoker/aggressor distinction.

For scarring, take a listen to his lungs, his breathing, and what is going on (is he having trouble catching his breath, etc). Scarring has no mucus or other liquid sound same for both the lungs and the nose.

As for when it can be finished, I think when Badger stops needing to pin them so often. My alpha rarely pins rats for the kicks. Maybe start introing things that normally cause issues in the tiny cage -- a box, treats, whatever. It's Isamurat's method and more common in the U.K. than here so I am not too familiar with it just having read their intros.

 

I guess Athos provokes it (as far as I see) by running away or by squeaking for no reason (currently got them in a small cage after free range - Badger isn't even paying any attention to Athos and is instead foraging for food. Athos is freaking out and squeaking regardless though). I'll try keeping them here until Badger stops feeling the need to pin though. That seems like a good sign (also yeah, this method does get recommended to me by UK folk...funny how things differ between countries).

When they seem like they're having a good time, I'll introduce a little wooden house that they used to have in their cage, but I removed it because it caused too much trouble (running and hiding under it, knocking it over, etc).

Badger's lungs have always sounded clear to me when I rat phone. It's just the little peeping noises that give it away. He's perfectly normal when free ranging (more energy than the other two). I noticed last night that he did stop for a lie down for a while, but he didn't really do that tonight, and considering they have been getting barely any sleep in the small cage recently, I guess it's to be expected (my older boys didn't even want to come out for free range tonight due to being tired).

All in all, I've not noticed a thing different about him. He has a teeny tiny bit of porphyrin, but he always has done, possibly because he's a lighter colour so it's more obvious, but it's definitely not mucus or anything. I might have noticed a very tiny amount of clear liquid from his nose earlier, but it's hard to say because he moved around so much. Either way, he's not gushing anything.

Also, just FYI, this is my current view. Boys all in small cage, Badger happily foraging through the substrate because I scatter fed, two older boys frozen and backed into a corner, despite the fact that Badger isn't even looking at them. This will probably settle after about 30 minutes, but until then, I get to feel like bad rat mum >.>


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Now we're in my bedroom and this is happening...

Badger is sleepy after all the free range, Thaddius is cuddled on Badger, Athos must be calm and happy to a certain extent because he's grooming himself whilst leaning on Badger. All within an hour of them being terrified of him (they came out briefly during free range and Badger chased them both back into the cage like a sheepdog rounding up sheep).

Mixed signals...


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It seems like Badger is the cause of mixed signals. It is on his whim that the cage either experiences upset or calm, regardless of Athos being a baby since Athos seems like babiness is a bit of a constant?

 

I think you're right. Athos has always been "the skittish one". He was really really coming around though about a month or so ago. He wasn't spending free range hiding and picking him up to go back in the cage wasn't a chore anymore (these things still haven't changed, but he's just now terrified of Badger whereas they used to be really close - it's my opinion that Badger really brought Athos out of his shell).


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I'm being advised to leave them in the small cage for a week with no free range time. I feel dreadful - will this work? She says it'll help Badger build a foundation with the other boys as alpha so he won't feel so frustrated about not being able to assert his dominance and the other boys won't feel so victimised when he chases them, and that every time I give them more space to run away/chase, it takes them back to square one. It makes sense, logically, but whenever I stand near the cage, my boys are climbing all over one another to get to me, it's heartbreaking :/

I have to move house within the next two weeks, so I think it would be really good to have them sorted once and for all by then, because that's when the next hurdle will present itself - new surroundings!


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